WHOOP CEO 威尔·艾哈迈德：500 亿小时健康数据、400 万会员数据护城河与 FDA 之争

Will Ahmed (00:00:00): On average, a Whoop member wears Whoop twenty three point six hours a day. We have just over fifty billion hours of continuous physiological data. So it's one of the largest health data sets in the world. For a dollar a day, this is like one of the best things you could spend on your health. You want people to love your product authentically. LeBron James is now a global ambassador for WHOOP. He was one of the first 100 people to ever wear it. Jason Calacanis (00:00:23): You're starting to understand things before the rest of the medical community is learning them. Will Ahmed (00:00:28): Through physiological signals, we might be able to predict that a biomarker is out of range without actually measuring the biomarker itself. Jason Calacanis (00:00:38): As your wealth grows, have you noticed how much more complex things get between investments, tax strategy, and estate planning? Managing it all is a full time job that you didn't ask for. Creative planning can help. Their coordinated team of investment managers, CPAs, and affiliated estate attorneys can do much of the heavy lifting so you don't have to. Creative Planning, where wealth works together. Go to creativeplanning.com slash all in. I'm going all in. Alright, guys. Welcome back to the all in interview program. And this is where guests we want to unpack for an hour or so, not talk about the news like we do every Friday. We wanna go deep, and health and technology is one of those areas that's super interesting to all the besties, and I was really excited that my friend Will Ahmed from WHOOP decided he would carve out an hour for me and the all in audience. You and I have spoken, I think, two or three times on the OG podcast this weekend startups that I've been doing for over fifteen years there in the journey for WHOOP. But let's start with just the footprint of WHOOP as an organization now, because I've known you for, yeah, well over five years, six years of of this journey. How many members, ballpark ish? How many people are using the WHOOP, and how much data have you collected? Will Ahmed (00:01:54): Yeah. So at WHOOP, we build wearable technology to improve performance and health. I've been building this company now for fourteen years. It was founded in in 2012. And I think like a lot of maybe overnight success stories, took a very long time to be an overnight success. You know, it took about twelve years for us to get to a million members and then another eighteen months or so to 2,000,000, about six months to 3,000,000, and and we expect to end the year around 4,000,000 members. Jason Calacanis (00:02:26): 4,000,000 members. And, hey. Listen. I'll I'll tell people right out. The service at first seems expensive because I think it's like $40 a month, $30 a month. Am I am I in the approximate range or... What do I spend? 300 a year on this? Will Ahmed (00:02:40): Depending on what plan you're on, it's anywhere from 15 to $30 a month. Jason Calacanis (00:02:44): I'm on the top top plan with the top top sensor. But you took a very thoughtful approach to saying we're gonna go for subscriptions, and we're gonna take out the cost of the device. So you don't have this cost, losing the device anxiety. So take me to that decision. And to be totally honest, for a dollar a day, I think this is, one of the best things you could spend on your health or or even less than a dollar a day. But take me through that decision as a business to go with $30 a month. Will Ahmed (00:03:11): Yeah. Thank you. It's a unique business model. And in 2017, we had launched to consumers. It was a one time fee, $500. At that point in the company's history, we had really built Whoop as like a performance brand. You know? It was known amongst the best athletes in the world, and and we worked with all these sports teams. And we said, okay. We're gonna go to consumers and and target, you know, an athletic and fitness enthusiast audience. And over the course of the next twelve months of having that product in market, we really observed two things. The first is that people who bought Whoop would wear it for a long time. And that's always been a challenge in the wearables industry around drop off rates and engagement. And fortunately for Whoop, that's been a strength of our of our product. But then the other thing we observed was that not that many people were buying the product. So we still had a sales problem. And because the engagement was so high, we asked ourselves, well, is there a business model here where the entry price is lower so people can get introduced to Whoop? And if they fall in love with the product, then over time, it can be a good business for Whoop too. And I think that immediately created all kinds of of growth for WHOOP back in 2018 '19, and we quickly became a recurring revenue business versus a hardware business, which, of course, is more attractive to investors. And then, you what I underestimate is how much it changed our DNA because when you're a subscription business, you become really obsessed with your existing members, arguably more so even the new members. And so it's all about innovation cycles and continuing to rapidly improve the product and obsess over the member experience. Jason Calacanis (00:04:52): See, this is, I think, a critical observation for founders who might be watching. When you're selling widgets, you know, you're... It's about distribution and, you know, marketing. But once you get a subscriber, hey, they're your customer next month and the following month and the following year. So you start obsessing about churn and engagement. Right? The metrics kinda shift. Right? Will Ahmed (00:05:15): Yeah. Totally. You get you get very focused on user engagement, how often people are are using your product. You get focused on how effective it is. You know, how... Are you actually driving behavior change and and health improvement? It it changed our hardware cycles as well. So when you're a hardware business, you're incentivized to ship new hardware every 12 months whether or not it's actually innovative because you always need that next dollar from a hardware sale. And, also, when you're a pure hardware company, you're you're not incentivized to be innovating on top of that existing product, right, because you wanna convince people to buy the next thing. And for us, we're actually... We're the opposite incentives. We wanna launch hardware when it's really innovative and it's a step function better. And and then we're really focused on trying to continue to update the the membership and the subscription. So, you know, someone who joined, I don't know, eighteen months ago may not have known they were gonna have ECG monitoring or A fib detection or advanced labs, which is now the blood work feature that we have in the app or HealthSpan, which, you know, tells you your WHOOP age and is a whole longevity feature, blood pressure insights, which is a new capability that allows people to to look at their blood pressure every day. So these are all examples of new features that we've brought to market with hardware that's in market. Jason Calacanis (00:06:40): Yeah. And what that does is you get over the issue we have with Apple products, which is, like, you're taking on as WHOOP the responsibility for telling me when to upgrade and why I should upgrade, but it's not like some high pressure thing like your iPhone cycle where they're constantly, you know, pressuring you to upgrade so they can make the money on the hardware. Now let's talk about the innovation inside the software. And, you know, I've used everything, Fitbit, which is, I guess, Google Health now, Apple Watch. I've had all of it, Aura, over many, many years. And I settled on Woop. Why did I settle on Woop? Well, I thought your software actually, which was hard for me to get my head around at first because you have this recovery score, you have the sleep score, you have stress. But... And then there's this journal feature. It was a little complex for me compared to the other products, but ultimately, what I found was it gave me more value once I committed to the product. So what is committing to the product mean? I think if you put in and you fill out the journal every day or just, you know, a couple times a week, you get much more out of it. So let me have you explain what the most important metrics are here. Heart rate variability, the recovery score, high stress sleep, etcetera. And then and and then work me into, like, some of the the the features around journaling and why that's important. Will Ahmed (00:08:11): Yeah. The three main pillars on WHOOP are around sleep, recovery, and strain. And so most people start their day by looking at how well they slept last night, and that'll be everything from our sleep score to their sleep consistency. Do they go to bed and wake up at the same time? Your hours of sleep. So how many of those hours were quality sleep versus the time that you just spent in bed trying to sleep? How much was restorative? Slow wave sleep, REM sleep, you know, a pretty deep understanding of your body's overall circadian rhythm and how well you're sleeping. And then ultimately, your recovery score, which is red, yellow, green, zero to a 100%. By the way, I'm I'm pretty pumped about mine today. I want you to know I'm ready for you. Jason Calacanis (00:08:55): Oh, man. Will Ahmed (00:08:56): 93%. Hold on a sec. I I just had to show you that. Jason Calacanis (00:09:00): 93% is pretty good. Will Ahmed (00:09:01): That's pretty strong for me. Jason Calacanis (00:09:03): That's very strong. For me, not so good. I'm on a 67. Will Ahmed (00:09:08): Okay. But you got a green dial. Those I got green dial, and my sleep Jason Calacanis (00:09:12): is 83%. Yeah. And my train today is incredibly low because all I've done is sit and do no work. But, you know, this is, like, super critical for me to have these numbers now. I travel. I go to Japan. I go to Saudi. I go to Davos, you know, World Economic Forum. I... I'm all over the globe, and I'm trying to regulate my sleep. I'm trying to figure out should I be on this sleep schedule or, you know, the other one, and I'm just trying to make sure I'm fresh for when I'm doing performative stuff, you know, like on on podcasts or speaking gigs, and it's essential for me now. It's just essential for me. Yeah. I can't live without it. The thing that was interesting that happened for me is you also have under those three most important metrics there Will Ahmed (00:09:57): The health monitor? Jason Calacanis (00:09:58): Yeah. Have the health monitor. Now this is critical for me because twice now in the past... Yeah. I think it's two or three times now, I have had under health monitor, which has your respiratory rate, your resting heart rate, skin temperature, blood oxygen, and HRV, heart rate variability. Right now, I'm all in green. However, the other week, I'm gonna tell you this story, involves me going to the emergency room with chest pains. This is serious. Some people in the house, the kids, whatever, had a respiratory infection. I didn't get it, but I wake up one day, and my respiratory rate is two breaths higher than normal. Instead of 16, it was, like, 18 or 15, it was 17. And then my skin temperature was, like, two degrees hotter. Right? Will Ahmed (00:10:45): And just And for people listening, when your respiratory rate is elevated by two breaths like that, that's actually pretty meaningful because respiratory rate is normally a very boring statistic. It normally doesn't change at all. Jason Calacanis (00:10:58): So it's like, hey. What's going on? Then it does it a second day in a row. So then I, you know, like, do the warm bath. I I got me sure I got my electrolytes. I'm I'm thinking maybe I'm coming down with something. Anyway, I recover on Saturday, Sunday. Sunday night, I can't sleep. I start getting chest pains. I put the Tesla at 1AM and self driving, and I go to the emergency room because I used to work on an ambulance. I know, hey. You know, when you have chest pains and you're a 55 year old male, this could be serious or it could be indigestion. I go. I do every possible test. I go right to the heart center in Austin here, and they do the CT scan. I think that's the the big scan of your heart. EKGs, everything. I'm there from 1AM until 7AM. Turns out I had inflammation in my lungs, around my chest, and my heart was being constricted. So I was experiencing chest pain. I was not having a heart attack. But there was something going on, and I was alerted to it too for two days in a row without having any other symptoms. Very strange. Right? And it was the WHOOP those two days early, that Thursday, Friday, that on Sunday, I was on high alert. I was like, something's going wrong with my system. It had done that. And the reason is three years ago, the same thing happened. My skin temperature is going crazy. And then in that case, I think it was my HRV. I'm like, what's going on? I got COVID. Will Ahmed (00:12:20): Yep. Jason Calacanis (00:12:20): So I have two two bad scores. I'm in New York with one of my daughters, and I was able to take that Paxlovid, which you can only take if you get to it early. So I'm like, f this. Two days of, like, heat, I go... My wife goes, maybe you got COVID. I'm like, wow. That's so retro. I go right to Duane Reade. I take the test. I got it. I get Paxlovid all in the same day because the WHOOP told me. So you anticipated two acute situations for me. What other acute things are are you starting to learn here now that you have 4,000,000 people in the system? I understand now you're becoming a contributor to the preemptive delivery of medical services and or, you know, you're you're starting to understand things before, let's say, the the the rest of the medical community is is learning them. Will Ahmed (00:13:09): Oh, thanks for sharing that. I mean, that's an amazing story and I'm grateful you're feeling alright and and grateful that WHOOP could could play a small role helping. I think it's it's amazing. We now get these testimonials every every day, every week from from members who haven't experienced like the one you described. I got a message last week from, you know, a fit healthy baseball player who all of a sudden saw he had these elevated heart rates while he was sleeping that looked very abnormal. Know, someone with a resting heart rate of 50 beats per minute getting a heart rate of a 120, a 130 while he's sleeping. And and he goes in to see the doctor, and they do some tests and sure enough stage four Hodgkin lymphoma. Wow. And and he was able to get treated for it and he's recovered from it. And and then, you know, another similar story where a member with their HRV, they'd been on WHOOP actually for I think close to a decade. So they had this incredible baseline and an HRV for for people who are less familiar Jason Calacanis (00:14:18): Yeah. Unpack that because you're the one who introduced me to this whole concept Will Ahmed (00:14:21): and Jason Calacanis (00:14:22): I I have since gone down the rabbit hole. Will Ahmed (00:14:24): So HRV stands for heart rate variability. It's the amount of time between successive beats of the heart. And and it's a little counterintuitive, but the more variability in time between successive beats of the heart, the healthier your overall system is operating. And it's this lens into your autonomic nervous system, which consists of sympathetic and parasympathetic activity. So sympathetics activation, heart rate up, blood pressure up, respiration up. It's what happens, you know, when you have a thought like the... There's a lion in the room or, you know, when you start to exercise or you're thinking about something stressful. Conversely, parasympathetic is all the opposite. Heart rate down, blood pressure down, respiration down. It's what helps you fall asleep. If you exhale for a long period of time, that's parasympathetic. And what you want is for for sympathetic activity and parasympathetic activity to be coupled, and so your body's kind of constantly regulating its environment. And when that's the case, it it means you have a higher heart rate variability, that the measurement will be higher. And we're measuring heart rate variability twenty four seven. It was really one of the the key innovations in founding the company. I did all this medical research when I was a student at Harvard and heart rate variability was a thing that jumped off the page to me because there was really interesting research on it but it couldn't be measured twenty four seven. And and so that's where, you know, part of where WHOOP was born out of. Anyway, heart rate variability is something that we use for stress monitoring. It's something we use for our recovery score. And and we baseline everyone on WHOOP, then we're able to show you every day, are you within your baseline? Are you a little higher? Are you a little lower? When you look at trends of this over years, you start to get a sense for is someone getting healthier over time or or less healthy? It's a really important longevity indicator. Typically speaking, as you get older, your heart rate variability will drop. Will Ahmed (00:16:20): So, you know, people who are in their twenties, their heart rate variability will be anywhere between, like, 80 and a 100 on average. Thirties, you start to drop to 70. Forties, you start dropping to 50. You know? Fifties, sixties, all of a sudden, you're in, you know, thirties and below. And so if you can fight that trend, that... Those averages and keep your heart rate variability even just flat over years, that's actually a sign of good fitness, good longevity. And, anyway, back to the story I was telling you, the... This individual, they had a very steady heart rate variability that was within a specific range, and all of a sudden it plummeted. So it was a healthy person. They had a heart rate variability of about a 100, and and then it was 50 all of a sudden for for a period of time. Again, goes in, gets all these tests. He turned out to have testicular cancer. Jason Calacanis (00:17:10): Oh, wow. Will Ahmed (00:17:11): And so Jason Calacanis (00:17:11): Now was that known previously that HRV would in some way be a a lead indicator for testicular cancer? Will Ahmed (00:17:19): I mean, I don't think so. You know? That's what's so fascinating about this moment in time is we've never had this much data on the human body continuously. One of the principles to founding WHOOP was twenty four seven data. And it's it's why we have a fourteen day battery life now. It's why we we invented a charger that you slide on to your WHOOP. Jason Calacanis (00:17:39): I was about to say these are super important. And when you first told me about this on on this week in startups, I was like, wow. I need a... I wanna see how many steps I've done and the time. It makes no sense. And you were like, trust me, Jake. I'll... You know, there's a reason for this. Yeah. And now that I've used it, it turns out you're absolutely right. The reason I have had so many long streaks... The only time I really stopped using this for the past couple years is when I lost it and I had to order a new one. So it broke my streak, which was a bummer, but it is what it is. It's just a number. Because you can wear it in the shower, you can wear it in the bath, and you should. It turns out a warm bath is... When we get to journals in a minute, super, great for my recovery for whatever reason and my sleep. You never have to take it off. And you can slide on the battery charger. So you can have essentially the opposite experience that I had with my Apple Watch. The Apple Watch was annoying because it's... I'm getting alerts, and I'm getting alerts for things that I... App I installed two years ago, and it's just constantly bothering you. People think you're rude when you look at the watch, and then the battery dies every, you know, whatever. For the Apple Watch, I think I might have gotten to twenty four hours or thirty six hours, forty eight hours a couple times, but it's a terrible experience. With this, I I mean, I I've made it ten days, you know, fourteen days. No problem. And I carry... I bought three battery chargers. I just keep I keep one in my desk. I keep one on the bedside, one in my bed... My travel bag. It's like these things aren't expensive. And and that's a key to it, think, as well. Yeah? Is the the amount people wear these. Will Ahmed (00:19:14): On average, a WHOOP member wears WHOOP twenty three point six hours a day. And as a consequence, we have just over fifty billion hours of continuous physiological data. So it's one of the largest health data sets in the world. And now with the, you know, the advent of AI and what you can do with large data sets, it's just like a really exciting time to be working in this space. Jason Calacanis (00:19:40): Do all the AI companies, like the frontier models, wanna buy this data from you in aggregate? Is that like a huge business for you guys eventually? How do you think about that or building your own models? Will Ahmed (00:19:51): Yeah. Today, we're building our own models, you know, foundational models within the company that are essentially training on top of this data. So one Jason Calacanis (00:19:59): So you're using open source models or you're you're you're We're Will Ahmed (00:20:02): developing our own models. We've got open source models. And and what's amazing is you've got this huge physiological dataset, but then you also now have other datasets. Right? So people are uploading their blood tests or they're doing advanced labs through WHOOP. They're uploading medical records. And and so as an example, we're we're now starting to see indications that through physiological signals, we might be able to predict that a biomarker is out of range without actually measuring the biomarker itself. Jason Calacanis (00:20:33): Wow. Will Ahmed (00:20:33): And so then, you know, you could give someone a very targeted, hey. We think you're... You know, we think you have high cortisol. You should get this one test. And and it gets... And, you know, and it gets super it gets super targeted, which is exciting. Jason Calacanis (00:20:46): Which the AI would be able to figure out. The AI is gonna look at all this data and say, hey. Maybe there's a cortisol this year or here's the possibilities, which is super fascinating. So not... You you see your business in the future as this AI assistant, and you added an AI assistant, I think, to the product less than six months ago. I'm addicted to it now. Will Ahmed (00:21:04): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:21:05): And you have these ongoing conversations. It logs the conversations. And so now it was, I'll be candid, pretty dumb at the start. It would be like, you know, you could talk to it and you'd be like, yes. You had this rate. Okay. Thanks for that rate. But now it's gotten a bit more sophisticated because now when I tell it, I'm in Japan. You didn't record my sleep. It's like, oh, okay. Here's what's happening. And it actually is understanding the product, and I I I guess you're doing some reinforcement learning. Will Ahmed (00:21:35): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:21:36): And it's gotta be that these 4,000,000 members, including myself, are now telling it where the product breaks down. Because when you... Or or where the opportunities are to add more features, however you wanna look at it. But there's this constant struggle I was having with changing time zones. And was my, was my sleep getting recorded properly so then I can get my recovery? And then I started asking, and then it prompted me and said, hey. By the way, when are you leaving for Japan or whatever? And I was like, here's my flight. This is when I land. And it was like, you should sleep at the first half and then not go to bed when you get to Japan. Don't have caffeine at this time. So somebody in the company, I think, explicitly started doing a time zone change, or did it just learn that and infer it? What... Did you did you get specific about that, and how are you using the AI coach? Will Ahmed (00:22:28): We spun up a team on travel specifically because it's such a popular use case for a lot of our members and, you know, our origins were with athletes, but now we've got this wide audience of aspiring people. You know, I'd say that's really the... If you think about who is WHOOP targeting, it's the aspiring. And that could be a great athlete, that could be someone who's fit, but it could also just be someone who wants to have more energy for their family and their job and their life Yes. Hobbies. That's right. And wants to live longer. Right? Jason Calacanis (00:22:54): Yeah. Will Ahmed (00:22:54): Live longer. But the AI, the AI coach is a big part of that, and it's a big part of our future. And, you know, we've been working on it for years now. I'm glad to to hear that you feel like it's getting good. And Yeah. About 80% Jason Calacanis (00:23:06): our say it's like a seven and a half right now. Seven and half out of 10. I think there's so much potential for it. Yeah. Will Ahmed (00:23:11): As long as it's good enough for you to be engaging with it, it's just gonna keep getting better with time and we're getting better at that too. And and so, you know, one thing that's really interesting, again, back to these datasets. So physiological data we talked about, that's from the sensor. Then you've got the advanced labs and the blood testing. You've got the medical records coming in. But actually this is this is another very important piece of data which is all sorts of user feedback. Right? Like the journal itself. So about just over 50% of our members journal every day. It's a Jason Calacanis (00:23:47): good point to explain what the journal is. Will Ahmed (00:23:50): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:23:50): So this is I'm sorry that I keep explaining your features, but I'm so passionate about the product as you can hear. Will Ahmed (00:23:55): No. You're doing great. So the the WHOOP journal is essentially a 100 plus different behaviors, lifestyle decisions, you know, supplements, drugs, you name it that someone might wanna log. So popular things that people log every day are, like, did I drink alcohol last night? Was I hydrated? Did I travel? You know? Did I meditate? Was I happy? Was I sad? You know? Was I stressed? And and all of this anecdotal information also builds on on these datasets where, you know, if you wanted to come up with an algorithm for predicting whether someone would be happy, you would actually need a fair amount of data from someone on, you know, on their overall mood as an example. So, anyway, we're excited about bringing all these different types of datasets together, and it's one thing that we feel uniquely positioned to do because not that many companies, you know, have people opening their app eight times a day and 80% of their member base interacting with the AI. Jason Calacanis (00:24:57): Starting a business usually means juggling a bunch of different services just to look legit. Not anymore. With Northwest registered agent, you get a complete business identity all in one place. A business address, domain, website, phone number, and more with privacy protection built in from day one. Don't spend hundreds or thousands on services you can get from Northwest for free. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com slash all in free, and start using free resources to build your business today. I'm going all in. The journal was a major unlock for me. Here's from a user perspective since we're doing a whole, like, user session here. What's really interesting about it is you get these behavioral insights, and I think you get in a behavioral insight when you've used it 10 times, five yeses, five noes. As an example, if you're doing creatine, somebody's paying attention at WHOOP, and I guess you got a lot of re... How many people working over there now? 1,200. 1,200. Woah. That's that's grown significantly. Yeah. Will Ahmed (00:26:04): We grew. Jason Calacanis (00:26:05): Yeah. Wow. So when when you pull up your your behavioral insights, and in the morning, it will ask you and prompt you, because in the mornings when everybody opens us to check their sleep, start recovery, it prompts you. You can start to figure out after this five and five, what impact that behavior has on recovery. So it turns out for a warm bath, which was never my thing. I hate baths. Not my thing. Like, I'm a guy, like, going in a bath, hanging out in a bath. I... It's... Have no interest. I'm a I'm a guy from Brooklyn, like, kinda feels weird to be in a bath with the candles. Will Ahmed (00:26:39): Any salts in the bath? Are you adding fragrances? Jason Calacanis (00:26:42): Add the... Yes. You got me. I'm adding salts to the bath. Yes. And that's now also tracked. Will Ahmed (00:26:47): That helps. Jason Calacanis (00:26:48): It helps. Warm bath, plus 7% Will Ahmed (00:26:52): Wow. On my recovery. Have you ever heard of something like that? That's very high as a as a response. So, you know, for folks who are trying to figure out what we're talking about, essentially, when you log these things, WHOOP then will tell you what's positively or negatively affecting your recovery score. So a big wake up call for a lot of people ends up being alcohol because it'll show you that alcohol has this, like, hugely negative effect Jason Calacanis (00:27:16): Disastrous. Will Ahmed (00:27:16): On your recovery. Jason Calacanis (00:27:17): It's poison. I don't drink, so I never even log it. But I'm... You have a couple of beverages now and again, Will? And then what impact does Will Ahmed (00:27:24): it have on your repertoire? I feel like I've got a good Jason Calacanis (00:27:26): relationship with alcohol. Will Ahmed (00:27:27): Although, it's got a negative 9% for me, so I'm now looking at I'm now looking at my behavior insights. Here's a sneaky one for everyone. Jason Calacanis (00:27:35): Wait. Have you considered having that drink while you're in the warm bath? Yeah. Right. Will Ahmed (00:27:39): Maybe Maybe I should start adding warm baths. But I do I do steam room. I do cold plunge. Those are Jason Calacanis (00:27:45): How's that working out? Will Ahmed (00:27:47): Those are more neutral, but I like the way they make me feel. And there's a lot of longevity research on saunaing and contrast therapy. So second to alcohol for being the most negative for me is a late meal. So Yes. Eating eating within three hours of bedtime, we've now seen across the entire woo population, is really detrimental to your sleep and your recovery. And it's because your body's still digesting for those first few hours that you're in bed. And as a consequence, you're not getting quality sleep. Jason Calacanis (00:28:19): So you get high stress during the sleep, I would assume. Yeah? Yeah. The high... That whole high stress thing. Here's mine. For some reason, vitamin d minus three. I don't know if that's accurate or not, but I was putting a little vitamin D in. Maybe that's a false positive. Will Ahmed (00:28:31): It could be that the days you took it were days that you were traveling or, you know, there could be something else going on. Jason Calacanis (00:28:38): Yeah. There's a correlation here that we're not seeing yet. Will Ahmed (00:28:41): Plus, by the way, you can ask you can ask WHOOP that. You can send Jason Calacanis (00:28:44): That's Will Ahmed (00:28:45): a great I'm seeing vitamin d minus three. Does that make sense? What could be going on? And maybe it'll it'll look at your travel alongside that. Jason Calacanis (00:28:53): Okay. This is a modest difference. And it's a correlation, not evidence that vitamin d caused the change. Your recent recovery has ranged twenty seven percent to eighty seven percent but you haven't logged vitamin d in this fourteen day stretch so there's no recent comparison. You were given your Thorough Flow cross bath. Yeah. Okay. So I got a little more work to do on that one. But plus five strain is minus five on recovery. That makes total sense. Will Ahmed (00:29:15): Yep. So when you work out, your body needs to recover. Jason Calacanis (00:29:18): Plus 1% of the day in high stress zone. Minus 9% on recovery. So you know through my temp... What what... The the stress score comes from what? Temperature, heart rate, HRV? Will Ahmed (00:29:32): Primarily HRV, but it's also using other sensing. Jason Calacanis (00:29:35): Got it. So... And that's kinda your... Is that your special sauce there? Proprietariness in the in that... The the stress score? Will Ahmed (00:29:42): The stress score itself is something that we invented. Of course, we based it on physiological research. And I would say that's one of the hard things about this space, which is how do you take medical research that's credible and then a lot of data because you're gonna be dating... Getting data from consumers and then great design. Right? Because at the end of the have to design something to ultimately have a score that people wanna look at. And and so there's a lot of science to it, but there's also art to it. And I think it's I think it's something WHOOP has been very good at. You know, the recovery score and our... Now our health span score is is the most screenshotted page in the app. Jason Calacanis (00:30:22): Makes total sense, yeah, when you share that. Consistent bedtime plus four, caffeine plus four, creatine plus four, morning sunlight plus three. So now that I have this, I also do some meditation with the Calm app and and with waking up or on my own. That also... I don't have enough data in there yet because I keep forgetting to log it, but you... It does log my skiing. So I use slopes. Yeah. And so slow... You you... You're a skier, Will, or no? Will Ahmed (00:30:49): I ski, but not... It sound... I'm not using an app for skiing, so my sense is you ski more than I do. Jason Calacanis (00:30:54): I mean, I I try to get to thirty, forty days a year. Oh, good. There you go. But two hours a day. So it's like executive skiing, CEO skiing, if you catch my drift. Do a podcast before. Love your in Will Ahmed (00:31:04): Japan. Jason Calacanis (00:31:06): I do five, ten days in Japan is the goal. The rest are at my ski house. Will Ahmed (00:31:11): That's elite skiing. Jason Calacanis (00:31:12): Yes. Yes. So you can come with me and Tucker Carlson if you're into it. It's a really weird trip. Will Ahmed (00:31:16): Great. Great. Jason Calacanis (00:31:17): The other nice thing is it pulls in my slopes data and puts it as an activity. So you have an activity tracker. And the activity tracker is really great. You get to... You know, I do these long walks in Japan or when I'm in New York. I love to do long walks my age. Long walks and rucking and farmer's walks are, like, the key to longevity, I'm told. And the great thing is now it knows that, and it's making a training program for me around that, and it asked me the AI, what's my goal? I said my goal is to not get injured and ski better, and these are the exercises I know are gonna help. It's now the AI understands my goals, kinda coaching me and setting up plans, and then lo and behold, one of the things I I think I had asked you for, maybe a DM somewhere on Twitter or something, You know, I take a GLP. So I started tracking it. I take a light GLP. Lost 43 pounds Will Ahmed (00:32:12): on Wow. Congrats, man. Jason Calacanis (00:32:13): That's awesome. Oh, well... Yeah. And it... I mean, let me tell you, that makes a difference. When you're two thirteen, you get to one seventy skiing, sleeping, everything. I wish I had WHOOP during that journey. Will Ahmed (00:32:21): Did your resting heart rate go down a lot? Jason Calacanis (00:32:24): You know, I wasn't fully on WHOOP for the majority of that. That would have been cool to have. That would have been so cool to have. You know what? I'll gain the 40 pounds back and then lose it. But now I'm on a maintenance dose, and you just released a GLP tracker that has in it all the cohorts of things you wanna make sure you're doing when you're taking GLP, including protein consumption. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that and how GLPs are kinda making their way into the the ecosystem here. Will Ahmed (00:32:50): Well, in general, you know, I think in line with this theme of we wanna have a lot of data under the WHOOP umbrella so that we can actually give you the right insights. If you're taking a GLP one, that's a pretty meaningful, you know, shift to what's gonna happen for your body. One And of the challenges with GLP ones is that typically speaking about 50% of the weight that someone loses is fat and 50% is muscle. Mhmm. And, you know, so that's how sometimes people could end up getting quite frail even though they've lost a considerable amount of weight. And and so it's good for WHOOP to know that you're on a GLP one. And then in turn, it's really gonna push you to to get some activity and hopefully a little bit of strength training even if it's just body weight in so that you don't end up losing that muscle. And I think that's also where the the appropriate diet with protein and, you know, we've heard some anecdotal success around people taking creatine while they're on GLP ones, I think, is is super important. And, you know, just to say, like, we have all this data and and and we take it very seriously and we want it to be secure and private. We've actually gone through the... Oh, here we go. Jason Calacanis (00:34:00): Yeah. I'm just... You know, I mirrored my phone. Here's my actual whoop. You can see my resting heart rate and all that, but I added my GLP there. And it said, you know, you gotta get to 9,800 steps now. You gotta do two strength activities a week, hydration seven days a week, protein, and then just check off that you took your GLP. And it took me through a little script to say, you you know, how often do you take it, etcetera. Will Ahmed (00:34:24): And there would have been a process here, I imagine, where the AI was asking you about some of this, and you ultimately confirmed you wanted to do these things and have a plan. Jason Calacanis (00:34:32): Right? Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm at three hundred days on my shriek here. But the other thing you added you added, I guess, badges a little bit more, kinda like Peloton has, like, insane number of badges. And so you get to see where you're at. And, like, I am a rucking machine on my... I'm in the top 1% of people doing ruck... Rucking and farmers. So that's like a little competitive thing. Will Ahmed (00:34:56): Yeah. There you go. You gotta maintain that now. You gotta keep rocking every day. Jason Calacanis (00:35:00): Okay. So let's let's talk about you and your relationship with the FDA. Little controversy here. It's been covered over and over again. All these devices, I guess, are not under medical devices. And maybe you could explain to us how this FDA looks at you versus other medical devices and how that's changed over time. But you have blood pressure insights, BPI, and you launch it. The FDA was a little bit like, hey. We're not happy here. Yeah. And then you have the ECG heart screening stuff, and all of these devices, whether it's my Apple cleared. And that's medically cleared. So... And when you do that, these things, you always get this disclaimer. Hey. Listen. We're not in the heart attack business. So when I had those things, it's up to me to interpret that or a doctor. But talk to me about the tension and how it's been going across the two administrations because now you've lived through, you know, Trump, go go rah rah. President Trump is, like, all in on disrupting, he and he put a Kennedy in there to do that, and and he's a bit of a disruptor himself. He's very pro business. And then Biden, obviously, maybe a little more regulation less pro business, definitively less pro business, but I don't know in the medical space how that happened. So talk to me. It's not a politics show, but you're you're all running into regulation now. Will Ahmed (00:36:31): Well, just to say, like, it's been a... Certainly a long process for WHOOP and working with the FDA, and we've worked with them in a lot of different contexts, which I'll talk about here in a second. And, you know, the history of very innovative technology with, you know, somewhat dated regulatory policies is a history that has controversy from time to time. So I'm not surprised that we've had some challenges or disagreements along the way. But I'm actually really happy with with our relationship with the FDA today. Now four years ago, I really wanted to be able to do blood pressure monitoring. And historically, you needed a cuff for that, and it was really a pretty difficult signal processing problem. There was no product on the market that could measure blood pressure accurately from the wrist. And so we set out to see if we could do it. And one of the ways that we collected a huge dataset on it was in collaboration with our members where we asked members if they wanted to participate in a stress, sleep, and blood pressure study. And as part of that, we actually had 70,000 people enroll. So think about, you know, the ability to generate studies at at huge scale fast. And and so people were actually uploading their blood pressure readings every single day for a number of weeks. And what that allowed us to do was to build out a pretty powerful dataset on on blood pressure monitoring and also to be able to train that alongside all of the physiological data that we were already collecting. Anyway, fast forward, we get to a period where all of a sudden we've got a very powerful algorithm for measuring blood pressure and that's one of the things that we do I think, very well at WHOOP is, you know, we pick a hard physiological signal and then we say we wanna be able to measure it as accurately or within a similar accuracy as a medical device. Will Ahmed (00:38:22): And then we look to bring that to consumers. And there was controversy around blood pressure monitoring before we launched because prior to launching it, historically, blood pressure had been under the category of physiological signals that needed to be a quote unquote medical device. And just as some, you know, background for for our listeners, the FDA is really supposed to evaluate products that have a medical diagnosis. And and then if you're not providing a medical diagnosis, then it falls under a category called wellness. And and there's, like, a pretty good, you know, history for this with with heart rate monitoring, for example, where if you do heart rate monitoring for exercise, that's wellness. If you do heart rate monitoring for sleep, that's wellness. If you do heart rate monitoring for, you know, A fib detection or heart attack prediction, okay, that needs to be regulated. So the FDA in the past had a pretty clear distinction for heart rate. This is wellness. This is medical. Right? With blood pressure, they said that if you're measuring blood pressure, it has to be medical. But the problem with that is there's an avalanche of research that supports that, not surprisingly, blood pressure affects your stress. It affects your sleep. It affects your overall well-being. And we felt like there was a pretty clear lane for us to introduce a blood pressure feature that was a wellness feature. And so we launched the feature. The FDA, you know, came back and said that they felt like it needed to be regulated. They actually sent us a warning letter. There was a big disagreement that played out that was quite public about it. But we, you know, we stuck to our guns, and and I ultimately really believe in in the way that we approached it. And through a long process, the FDA actually has since updated their guidelines, I think based on our case, but also based on feedback from the industry that supports that blood pressure can also have wellness applications. And and so, you know, our blood pressure insights feature is still available for consumers. And just to say it, we have we have these conversations with the FDA across a lot of different categories. WHOOP also has medical clearances from the FDA. Will Ahmed (00:40:47): So our ECG feature where you can literally do an ECG from your wrist by just putting your fingers on the WHOOP, that's an FDA cleared product, five ten k. And so in some cases, we're we're going through a process of clinical trials to get FDA approval. In other cases, we wanna bring a product to market faster, and we also believe it's a wellness application. And so that's kind of a healthy, I think, process for innovative companies like WHOOP to be pursuing with the FDA. Jason Calacanis (00:41:20): Why don't you guys... I know you guys have some sort of integration with this Omron blood pressure cuff. I I saw it, like, I was, like, looking it up. Why don't you guys just make your own blood pressure cuff? Or what... Listen. We're at a $10,000,000,000 valuation here. We got 4,000,000 members, 250 on average a year, let's say. Got a billion in revenue. Like, let's just buy this company, Omron, or let's get in the blood pressure cuff business, and let's get in the scale business while we're out of it. Like, I trust the brand. I just want the whoop scale. I want you to be the person who puts the features in. I want you to control it. I want it to work. I don't wanna have to go through Apple Health in the back door to get my Fitbit scale uploaded, and I I just want... I want a WHOOP branded blood pressure cuff and a WHOOP branded scale. Will Ahmed (00:42:06): Well, appreciate you saying that. Mean, in a lot of categories we are debating, do we wanna build this ourselves? Do we wanna partner with someone? Or are we gonna make an acquisition? And and often we've defaulted to either building or acquiring versus partnering. In the case of blood pressure cuffs, we felt like that was a fairly commoditized technology, and there is, you know, medical efficacy there. So, you know, if people wanna do a calibration with a cuff to set up their WHOOP, which will then measure it without the cuff, because at the end of the day, we kinda wanna replace the cuff, that, you know, that feels like a a fairly healthy system. And and it's also worth saying that we we feel like we've earned the right to accumulate all this data because we have very strong data policies. So we do not sell data. You know? You are not the product, Jason. Like, you're... The membership is the product. Jason Calacanis (00:42:59): And Got it. Will Ahmed (00:43:00): And that's a huge, I think, distinction in this space, especially when you have, you know, big technology company. Jason Calacanis (00:43:06): Apple... Yeah. Let's just call it what it is. You may not wanna say it, but I can. They're they're... They make their money advertising, and Apple Apple is pretty good steward of data. I'll give them that. But, you know, they make it on really expensive hardware, so you are unique in both cases in terms of business model. You're in our corner, which I love. Will Ahmed (00:43:23): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:43:24): Because Apple's gonna make a competitor. They know their watch kinda sucks, and their software sucks. Like, Apple Health is terrible. Will Ahmed (00:43:32): The Apple Watch is the most successful smartwatch in the world. And so I think in terms of the category that they built to own, I think they I think they've been successful. I think it's an important product for them. It's a it's a product that does a lot of things. And so if you want text messages and emails and to be able to talk make... About what... Jason Calacanis (00:43:54): You worry to keep you up at night that they're gonna make a competitor? Will Ahmed (00:43:57): Well, I have enormous respect for Apple. I think they're one of the the best in the world at hardware and software. I think a lot of companies have entered our space and had challenges with with the screenless wearable or other wearable products. You know, it's interesting. Ten years ago, there were more competitive products in the market than there are today. Jason Calacanis (00:44:15): That's true, actually. Yeah. You had a lot of people trying this. Will Ahmed (00:44:18): People forget the whole Jawbone kind of Fitbit era. There was a whole Jason Calacanis (00:44:23): Oh my god. Will Ahmed (00:44:23): Class of Nike and Adidas and Under Armour. Jason Calacanis (00:44:26): What... I mean, how dumb was it for Nike to stop pursuing that? My god. That was such an obvious smart thing for them to do. Had a good start, and then they gave the business to Fitbit, I believe. And then they just got out of it. Alright. Listen. It's time for lightning round. Will Ahmed (00:44:39): Oh. It's lightning round. Jason Calacanis (00:44:41): Lightning round with Will. Will Ahmed (00:44:42): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:44:42): You gotta be honest here. Here we go. Brian Johnson or Andrew Huberman? Pick one. Will Ahmed (00:44:47): For podcasting, Huberman. Jason Calacanis (00:44:49): Who's making a bigger contribution to the the science and technology? Will Ahmed (00:44:53): I think Huberman has a a wider audience. I think Brian has pushed people's imagination of what they should be measuring. And I think both of those are really helpful. Jason Calacanis (00:45:04): Cold plunge, cold shower. Cold plunge, cold shower. Make a difference? Will Ahmed (00:45:08): I'll say cold shower because it's very accessible. Jason Calacanis (00:45:11): Okay. Will Ahmed (00:45:11): And it's something that people can do every day. And you do it for even thirty seconds, sixty seconds, you're just gonna feel a lot better. Jason Calacanis (00:45:18): Yeah. Wakes you up. Red light therapy or just the classic hot sauna? Will Ahmed (00:45:22): I like the hot sauna. Old school. Jason Calacanis (00:45:24): It gets hotter. I think the red light thing Will Ahmed (00:45:27): is It's hotter. Nonsense. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:45:30): Yeah. Will Ahmed (00:45:31): Okay. Jason Calacanis (00:45:32): Zone two cardio. This is for our age. I think you're 40 now, Will. Are you 40 yet? Will Ahmed (00:45:37): 37. Jason Calacanis (00:45:38): 37. Alright. So I'm gonna round you up to 40. I'm... I'll round myself down to 50. Zone two cardio or lifting. What what do you think? You gotta pick one for my age and for your age. Will Ahmed (00:45:48): I think this depends a lot on what someone's goals are. But in general, I think that everyone should be lifting more weights and probably doing... You know, if they have an hour to exercise, they should spend more time lifting and less time on an elliptical. Love it. Because people... Yeah. Because your your muscle mass is such an important test for longevity. Jason Calacanis (00:46:09): The alarm in WHOOP is quite sophisticated, Will. You can wake up based on recovery, sleep score, so the recovery score, the sleep score, or with a with a hard, you know, 6AM. Should you go recovery, sleep score, or with a hard alarm so you get your sleep consistency? Which one? Pick one of the three. Will Ahmed (00:46:31): If you're on vacation, you can go with recovery or sleep. But if you're trying to run a tech company, you better pick an exact time. Jason Calacanis (00:46:38): Okay. Alright. Coffee first thing in the morning, wait ninety minutes. Which one? Wait ninety minutes for your coffee, or just drink the damn coffee and live your life? Will Ahmed (00:46:48): I personally drink the coffee. Jason Calacanis (00:46:50): Yeah. Let's go. Alright. Strain score, sleep score, recovery score. Which one do you obsess over most? Of the of the big three, which one do you obsess over? You can't say you're you're... They're all your children. You love them all equally. Will Ahmed (00:47:06): Recovery. I mean, I wake up every morning waiting to see that that color of that dial. Jason Calacanis (00:47:12): I love it. Alright. Listen. There's your Will Ahmed (00:47:14): hour Jason Calacanis (00:47:15): with Will from WHOOP. Great product. I give it my highest endorsement, Eight Sleep. I'm an investor in. I love that product too. Those are my two favorite health products. And, hey, at the time of this recording, you have a little announcement about the king. No. Not president Trump. Gotcha. Not king Trump. But LeBron James, now playing for the Philadelphia seventy sixers. Big announcement. Will Ahmed (00:47:42): Yeah? Well, we're we're announcing today LeBron James is now a global ambassador for WHOOP. So he's been on WHOOP interestingly for eleven years, And we never had any formal relationship with him. We loved that he wore the product. Frankly, was it was really important in the early days that he did wear the product because he was one of the first 100 people to ever wear it. And so it was incredibly validating that this incredible athlete was willing to try a technology from an unknown company called Whoop. And and it gave us a lot of hope that we're onto something. But it's been an extraordinary to see his career over two decades plus, and he's the... He's really the the pinnacle of performance and and, like, longevity. And and so he joins a roster of ambassadors like Cristiano Ronaldo and Patrick Mahomes and Lewis Hamilton and Irina Sabalenka and Nelly Corda, so on. So it's a great group. Jason Calacanis (00:48:40): Now you had a philosophy though early on. We talked about this in our previous discussions that, like, hey. You're not gonna pay athletes to wear it, you know, and you're not gonna beg them to wear it because they're the customers. They're they're the ICP, the ideal customer profile. So is this like a maybe a change in thinking, or is this like a unique one of one case? Hey. He's been on the product for eleven years without a formal relationship, and, you know, he's in that era now. He's gonna, you know, retire in a couple of years. Hey, man. He's probably gonna go into this Kobe Shaq post playing era where where he gets in deep into business. So what what... What's the thinking here? And how do you think about athletes writ large? Will Ahmed (00:49:18): I think in general, if your business is pre marketing, so to speak, like you're not in a stage where you're doing big television advertisements and so on and so forth, you should be really careful paying anyone to use your product. You know, you want people to love your product authentically. And in our case, it just so happened that early on, our target market was these professional athletes. And so we needed them to organically love the product. And by the way, because you have to wear it twenty four seven, there's no amount of money I'm gonna be able to pay an athlete to wear something twenty four seven if they don't like it. Right. So on the flip side, it was like, well, if it actually works and it's measuring their sleep and recovery and they play better, you know, they should wanna pay for it. So that was our attitude for a long time. And, you know, we had a number of these individuals who are best in class of their sport and global people that wanted to invest in the company because they loved it so much. Jason Calacanis (00:50:16): Amazing. Will Ahmed (00:50:16): And from there, we also developed relationships where we could use their name, image, and likeness, which has a value associated with it Heck yes. That we recognize to be able to do advertising. And so, you know, they've been amazing partnerships and I'm very grateful that LeBron James is is part of, the Wolb roster. Jason Calacanis (00:50:36): Wait. Are the players allowed to wear these during games? Will Ahmed (00:50:40): Something that's something the NBA is still looking at. Jason Calacanis (00:50:43): Got it. Yeah. Because they're not allowed to wear jewelry. They've gotta take all that off because of injuries. So... But they could put it... Because you can wear it on your, armband. They could embed it in like a wrapper. So maybe some of them have snuck it on the court. Who knows? Will Ahmed (00:50:55): Well, you you probably saw the Australian Open stuff. Jason Calacanis (00:50:58): No. I didn't. Tell me. Will Ahmed (00:50:59): Well, in... At the Australian Open, the tennis tournament Jason Calacanis (00:51:02): Yeah. I don't watch tennis. Will Ahmed (00:51:03): Of players were asked to take their whoop off while they were playing. And it was, I think, in part because the Australian Open didn't know what they were wearing, but they were just wearing it, you know, under their armbands and everything else. And the ITF, is the International Tennis Federation, actually had approved WHOOP to be worn in matches. Mhmm. So the Australian Open was kinda out of line. And then next thing you know, the other majors have come forward saying that wearables can be worn. So I think there's this sort of natural evolution of Yeah. Resisting it, safety checks. And by the way, they're they're right to wanna be restrictive about what can be worn. Jason Calacanis (00:51:45): It's not a... I don't I don't think it's a safety thing if you're wrapping it around your your armband or something like that. I'll tell you Will Ahmed (00:51:51): I mean, obviously, I agree. Jason Calacanis (00:51:52): I'll tell you what's going on in background. Your your marketing department's probably getting shaken down. They're probably like, hey. You know, we'd love to have Whoop involved. It'd be terrible if something happened to an athlete wearing 1.2 ounces. But if you were to put a logo behind them for $10,000,000, well, we might have a different opinion. Will Ahmed (00:52:10): You know all the ins and outs. Jason Calacanis (00:52:12): Alright. But it's not my first time at this rodeo. I know they shake down when I hear it. Will Ahmed (00:52:18): How how are how are things for you in in early stage venture? Are you are you starting to lead these billion dollar seed rounds, or you're you're staying true to the the accelerator model? Jason Calacanis (00:52:29): You know, it's... Nobody wants to do year zero work. So I am leaned into that. Great. But then, you know, at the end, we we have the syndicate and we have 4,000 members of it. And we would syndicate our early stage c deals. Hey. If you wanna get involved in this, you know, JKOP's putting in a 100 k. You might wanna put in 5 k. They kept asking me, can you get me into zipline? Can you get me into WHOOP? Can you get me into SpaceX, Anthropic, whatever it is. So we started a late stage practice that we just started this year at the syndicate. Thanks for asking. And Great. We did we did zipline. We did icon homes, the three d printed homes. These are all billion dollar companies, $5,000,000,000 companies in vast space. So when I know the founder, the CFO gives its approval... Because you have to deal with this. Right? People doing off the books transactions and SPVs and buying out early employees and other, you know, early investors. You have to deal with some of this SPV madness? Will Ahmed (00:53:20): I'll say this. It's complicated when your business is failing, and it's complicated when your business is winning. So it's always complicated. Jason Calacanis (00:53:28): I think just... My advice to everybody with these SPVs off the books, whatever, is just build a relationship with the CFO of the company and just get their blessing for it and let them know what you're doing. And if they really don't want you to do it, then you're gonna have to accept that. Right? Like, it's their company. I I don't like this idea of going behind the back of the company and Will Ahmed (00:53:48): The the other thing to be wary of are these secondary brokers who Mhmm. They claim they've got shares from someone at a price Yes. And they go around saying that, but they're really just trying to create a market. And so Jason Calacanis (00:54:01): Happens to me all the time. Yeah. Because I literally... Like, I'm on the board of a company that's worth a couple billion dollars, and they come to me and I say, okay. Great. Who who is it with? Because I gotta... On I'm the board of the company. Gotta talk to the CFO, and, you know, I can help coordinate with you and then crickets. And I'm like, they're fishing. It's always a fishing expedition. This thing didn't really exist ten, fifteen years ago. Like, the only time I ever saw it was Facebook. And then Uber, when Masayoshi san came in, he he was like, hey, guys. I need you to sell some of these or I'm gonna invest in Lyft. And we were like, okay. I gave him 10% of my shares at the time. I was like, sure. I'll take a little 10% off the top just to keep Masa from investing. Know? Will Ahmed (00:54:40): What run what a run that business is sad, but congrats. Jason Calacanis (00:54:44): And I mean, right now, like, trading at an all time low PE and they're surging and they have, yeah, it's really weird to watch what's happening, like the anti AI trade, DoorDash, Uber, Figma, you know, all the... A lot of these companies getting taken to the woodshed a bit. And some of them are just, like, not impacted by it, but AI is gonna change everything. Lots of great investment opportunities. We'll see you all next time on the all in interview program. Go get a whoop. Get yourself a whoop. Perfect Christmas gift. Thank you, James. You doing it, Will. Love the product.