特朗普的政治天赋与民主党重塑：与众议员埃默、斯瓦尔韦尔、卡纳对谈

Jason Calacanis (00:00:04): Alright, everybody. Welcome to, the all in inauguration special. We are here in town, to celebrate and or commiserate the 2nd term of Donald Trump depending on where you sit on the political spectrum, and we are extremely lucky to have a partner in Spotify who has given us a box. Yes. We're in a glass box on the street. They really splurged and got a trailer. It's absolutely fantastic, but we thank them for their hosting us. It's very cool. With me today, of course, my cohost, Shamath Palihapitiya and David Friberg who is a little under the weather. Because let's be honest, Friberg, you've been out there. You and Lex took on the town last night. David Friedberg (00:00:44): I had a good time with Lex Freeman last night. That was good. Jason Calacanis (00:00:47): Let's leave it at that. David Friedberg (00:00:47): Let's leave it at that. Ro Khanna (00:00:48): Yeah. That sounds great. David Friedberg (00:00:49): It's been a couple nights in a row. I'm pretty beat. Jason Calacanis (00:00:51): Chamath, you have a, very busy social set schedule. And, you've been just bouncing around town with the who's who and taking credit for Donald Trump's victory. How's the victory lap going here? Because you play such a key role here by coming out and being even more unlikable in our hometown of the Bay Area and supporting Trump. I'm a small bit player. A bit player. But as you said to me in the car over here, you were the fulcrum that started the boulder that created the win. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:19): I said none of that. But, I think more changes are coming, Jason. Maybe to our home state of California. Let's see. Jason Calacanis (00:01:25): Let's see. What? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:26): Let's see. What? Phase 2. Jason Calacanis (00:01:28): We're extremely, honored to have Tom Emmer here. He is the US representative from the amazing state of Minnesota, home of Bob Dylan, Prince, and the Coen Brothers. Tom Emmer (00:01:38): And Tim Walz. Jason Calacanis (00:01:39): And Tim Walz. David Friedberg (00:01:40): Don't be sad. Coming in hot already. Well, let's start there. Jason Calacanis (00:01:44): With the David Friedberg (00:01:45): The whole time. Jason Calacanis (00:01:46): Let's start there. How much of a disaster, was the Democratic party? And when you watched what happened with Biden in all seriousness, do you think there was a cover up in terms of his mental acuity? And what do you think of Kamala's job out there not doing podcasts and, essentially being anointed and not having a primary. The the Democratic party seems lost. Crooked. And crooked. Okay. Yeah. Tom Emmer (00:02:13): I mean, the leadership. I I got good friends who are Democrats, so David Friedberg (00:02:16): I don't Tom Emmer (00:02:16): I'm not gonna disparage them. But, first, Jason, all of you, thank you. It's nice to be on all in. I've heard everybody's heard about it. Everybody wants to be here. So it's just nice that Jason Calacanis (00:02:27): And you promised you'd listen to it after this? David Friedberg (00:02:29): That's right. Actually, I listened last week. Tom Emmer (00:02:32): Sadly, it was about, the fires. But, the, the way they did this, was if you think about it, ballot access is a big thing. You you have to run for, months, and you have to get delegates and you have to make your case State by state and you have to meet certain requirements to actually end up on the ballot how the Democrats are able to remove Joe Biden literally, in a coup back room coup and install Kamala Harris in a matter of hours or days, and avoid any convention, like real democracy taking place where people are debating their candidates and where they're at. And then to your your, other question, that that's wrong. But your other question was, Joe Biden, was there a cover up? A cover up is when you don't see it, when you don't know about it, when you're totally unaware. This wasn't a cover up this was a conspiracy everybody in this town for 4 years watched when he came in he was already diminished and watch him continue to diminish over the course of his over the course of his term, it was the mainstream media that refused to actually comment on it. And then it was amazing overnight when, he has the debate last year, and it's like, oh my gosh. This is terrible. Look at this. And and suddenly, it was like they'd never seen it before. This was a conspiracy by a left wing media that, they're littered with people who have a partisan view, and they write about it. They create stories about it, and they don't tell you the whole story. Jason Calacanis (00:04:18): If you were Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:18): your Let's go down this pull this thread a little bit more because you said the the Democrats themselves are good people, some of them many of them, you know, but then the leadership you said was corrupt. So just can you help us understand who is the leadership? And then how does the corruption play out? What does the corruption look like? Tom Emmer (00:04:37): Well, remember, I'm on the Republican side. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:39): No. But I'm Tom Emmer (00:04:39): But I I could tell you what I watch. Yeah. What I watch is there were two times that they literally, whoever they are, it would be the super delegates. It a lot of people would say it's the Obamas, it's the Clintons, it's the, you know, original That's the that's the boogeyman for what Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:56): it's worth that people point to at least when you're not in DC. Like, if somebody said, who who are the leadership, elected or otherwise, that runs the Democratic party? A lot of people would point to the Obamas and then some of these super donors. Is that sort of your perception of how Tom Emmer (00:05:11): it works? It is. And the reason I I go back, as you remember, Bernie Sanders is marching towards the Democratic nomination. Ro Khanna (00:05:18): Right. Tom Emmer (00:05:19): And they get to South Carolina, and all of a sudden, Amy Klobuchar from my state. It just one after another. I'm out. I'm out. I support, Joe Biden. Right. Clearly, the whoever that is, because you're right. Ro Khanna (00:05:32): We Tom Emmer (00:05:32): we're not in the room to see, is it the Obamas? Is it, consultants like Carmel or Axelrod or whoever? Ro Khanna (00:05:41): So who Tom Emmer (00:05:41): is in that room? Yeah. But whoever's in that room, they have a plan when it gets to the end. And I I never thought, Joe, Biden was going to be the candidate. David Friedberg (00:05:51): And that's not how the Republican party operates. Because I think some people in the public have this perception that both parties operate that way, that there is a cabal of the most influential, and ultimately, they end up getting to pick. And the other party does the same thing. Is that not the case? No. And clearly, that wasn't the case with Trump. Right? Tom Emmer (00:06:08): Yeah. No. Ours I I would say that watching from the outside again, we're not on the inside of the Democrat machine. But watching from the outside, that's a top down process. On the Republican side, that's a bottom up process. And, Donald Trump is the best example Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:23): of Best example. Tom Emmer (00:06:24): Because, people in this town, you know, especially in the house where I serve are like, you know, we we got the American people. We have a mandate and you gotta remind them. Yeah. No. No. Donald Trump has a mandate. He got 77,000,000 votes. We got a little less than 75,000,000. So if you're looking at who literally is expanding this party and pulling this party over the line, it's one guy. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:47): Well, so David Friedberg (00:06:48): It's not a strong So Jason Calacanis (00:06:48): to your David Friedberg (00:06:49): point You view him the party leader? I do. Mhmm. Jason Calacanis (00:06:51): So to your point, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:51): this was a almost like a Donald Trump hostile takeover of the republicans. Meaning, if you look at the establishment rhetoric of what republicans stood for, I don't think Trump really cared. He had a point of view, and he had his own intellectual agenda and ideology. And to your point, 77,000,000 people said, I go with that. Do you think that that's possible on the Democratic side as well? Do you think that there's a different ideology that needs to be born there? Tom Emmer (00:07:16): I can only tell you the experience I've had with, one of my Minnesota colleagues who I I won't name him, but he might have run against the, sitting president. He he was we were talking on the house floor one day, and I was complaining to or giving him a hard time, I should say, about some of the off color remarks coming from the squad. And he made a point of telling me off Off color how? Well, let's just say there were some anti semitic, comments, all about the Benjamins, this stuff, and there was a censure that was being worked on. Ro Khanna (00:07:52): Oh, wow. Tom Emmer (00:07:53): Yeah. And, it was public. But the point is when I was saying, boy, you've had quite a week. He goes, oh, yeah. Yeah. He says, that's a very small group of people in our party with very large voices. And my response to him was, okay. Well, that might be true. But then people like you have to stand up and speak up and take my grandfather's Democrat party back. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:16): Yeah. Exactly. Tom Emmer (00:08:17): And so, no, I think they've got a problem. Identity politics, which they've perfected and been playing for years, it has now come back to bite them. Eric Swalwell (00:08:25): Mhmm. Tom Emmer (00:08:26): And there's where is the way out? They don't have a brand. They don't know who they are. They they they're fighting about, things like, men participating in in women's sports. I mean, it just it isn't resonating with the American people. So they're they're gonna have to figure that out for the future. But on our side, we're gonna have to figure out Donald Trump is the one that pulled this across the line. Here's here's the problem with the Republican party for me. The last 30 years, we've had great people representing us, but the public has been very frustrated because it seems like government and the bureaucrats always get a better deal Right. Than the average citizen in this country. Right. We're talking about Main Street. We're not talking about Silicon Valley, which has its own Main Street, but I'm talking about just good old Main Street USA. Yeah. You know, where it's rural country. It's, you know, people who are just trying to live their lives. David Friedberg (00:09:18): Yeah. Tom Emmer (00:09:18): They feel like their government hasn't been listening to them for years. This is what spawned the Tea Party. Yep. This is why we've had this over and over. And Donald Trump, you gotta give him credit. This energy was out there, and he actually grabbed it. And he showed us what it looked like when he ran in 16 Well, he Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:35): took the time to understand it. Tom Emmer (00:09:37): Or or he just innately has an ability to read people Yeah. Better than I've ever seen. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:43): Yeah. I mean, I think he is a generational retail politician. Jason Calacanis (00:09:46): A generational? Tom Emmer (00:09:47): I think he's a 1 in 150 year David Friedberg (00:09:50): Yeah. Tom Emmer (00:09:50): Leader. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:51): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:09:51): Freeberg, you have a a lot of thoughts on fiscal responsibility and have been banging the drum on the national debt. Tom, you also have a passion for fiscal responsibility. Maybe you have some thoughts on that, Friberg, to David Friedberg (00:10:02): Or maybe you can tell us your point of view on how much of an impact Doge can have. I don't know Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:07): if you've talked. And what you think reconciliation is gonna look like? I mean, this is gonna be a very gnarly pitch battle here. How how do we get 2,000,000,000,000 out of the Tom Emmer (00:10:17): Why are you stopping Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:18): it too? David Friedberg (00:10:18): Exactly. Why are you stopping it? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:20): Well, actually, let's ask that question. Is 2 even possible? And if so, how do you think you can get $2,000,000,000,000 out of it? Tom Emmer (00:10:25): So I'd I'd rather let's do it 2 ways. Okay. I'd rather, look at what's what could we put on the table? And we do this privately. So you won't get me to say what it is, where it is. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:36): What is that? David Friedberg (00:10:37): But I'll Tom Emmer (00:10:37): tell you, there's a list that we've sat down with that, reaches somewhere between 57,000,000,000,000 a year, over the next 10 years. David Friedberg (00:10:46): Okay. Tom Emmer (00:10:47): I and the the, that's what that 2,000,000,000,000 would be over the next 10 years. Jason Calacanis (00:10:51): Okay. Tom Emmer (00:10:52): I mean, listen, if if you're David Friedberg (00:10:54): The budget's 7.2. What's that? The budget the annual budget's 7.2. Yeah. Right? So Tom Emmer (00:10:59): And and the goal is, first, we gotta balance the budget. You gotta quit bleeding 1.5 to 2.2 trillion I think, oh, it's another trillion. Yeah. Whatever. You gotta balance. Yeah. Second thing you gotta do is start to bend the curve down. We we got the greatest economy in the world. It hasn't been performing where it could. I I think with Donald Trump, we can put it in a place where it can. You can see those revenues start to go up again. And you if you have this so you're controlling it, you could pay that you could pay that down rather quickly. I mean, if you're talking in terms of a decade. Jason Calacanis (00:11:30): This requires sacrifice and it requires representatives from each city, and each state to then go to their constituents and say, hey. We fought to get you x, y, and z, and you're only gonna get x and y. Tom Emmer (00:11:43): Yeah. Be careful. Some tell you they fight, but they're not really fighting. The, this this thing is going to happen because of Donald Trump. I think, I I leave it to Mike Johnson. He's the speaker. He will make these decisions. I'm not. Got it. I'm the whip. Whatever you tell me, my job is to make sure we get it done. And that's what we'll do. But I think you're gonna see a 2 track process. Mike Johnson for reconciliation has set a deadline. He wants to vote on a budget resolution by the 1st week of February. Why is that important? The budget resolution you have to have before you can even move forward with, reconciliation. That's usually prenegotiated with the senate. So if we can keep with that aggressive timeline, you'll have that back to the house, sometime in February. Once you have that, that allows your 12 subcommittees to get their allotment David Friedberg (00:12:36): Right. Tom Emmer (00:12:36): And start to build out their Right. 12 appropriation subcommittees, build out their budgets. Jason Smith, our ways and means chair, believes we can have that process done by the end of March. Mike in again, in this our speaker in this, very aggressive timeline, if that's possible, he would like to vote on it in the house in the 1st 2 weeks of April. Mhmm. This includes the tax permanency extensions, etcetera, from the Trump tax cuts back in 2017. If we're able to keep to that schedule, then you could you could realistically have a reconciliation bill to president Trump's desk by Memorial weekend. David Friedberg (00:13:16): Let's just talk about the other long term challenge and your point of view on the solution. What's gonna happen to Social Security by 2030, 2030 2, 2033? Where is this headed? Tom Emmer (00:13:28): Well, I think people are gonna have to innovate, And I think, you gotta honor the promises that have been made. There are many different things out there that are being looked at like a voluntary program that people, in a certain range, and this is above my my pay grade, a certain range, age range. Yep. Like, I don't know, 18 to whatever it is that are just coming into the system Yep. That it would give them a choice. Right. They would have a choice to stay in social security as we know it or to pursue a private route that will have federal parameters so you can't just be putting it into a retirement account, taking it out. Jason Calacanis (00:14:03): Right. Right. Tom Emmer (00:14:04): It would serve the same purpose, Jason Calacanis (00:14:05): but Like Australia system, the super system. Tom Emmer (00:14:08): It would obviously. And then it would grow the, the private side. Jason Calacanis (00:14:11): Yeah. But it's David Friedberg (00:14:12): and sorry. Is that ultimately necessary? We need to change Social Security. Tom Emmer (00:14:17): We gotta change David Friedberg (00:14:18): And when do we have to change it by? And now that the election is over, it because every politician is scared to talk about Social Security because everyone's got an election coming up. Are we gonna hear something different this time around? Or is it always gonna be the kick the can down the road with Social Security and whenever it's just such a golden goose. No one can talk about it. No one can touch it. Tom Emmer (00:14:36): Donald Trump was elected for three reasons. 1, to fix, our economic, woes, the inflation that's killed people, get energy moving again, seal the southern border, and create peace and stability around the globe. If we perform, and I'm I'm gonna change that because that's not really my attitude, when we perform. Mhmm. You start to build credibility with the American public. Yeah. Then and only then can you start talking about because nobody believes us. Eric Swalwell (00:15:04): Right. Tom Emmer (00:15:05): Right? So and and the media plays games. They try to plays games, they try to pit us against each other with these different ideas. The key is you have to honor the promises that have been made to Americans since Social Security was created. And then you have to look forward. And, again, we've said we're not going to touch Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. That was the president who said that. I got that. But there are some, efficiency things, reforms that you can do around these programs that actually Jason Calacanis (00:15:34): will make them, not only more, viable financially, but more efficient. Should Americans be able to trade cryptocurrency freely without regulations, Or do you think those regulations are in place for Tom Emmer (00:15:48): a good reason? Well, you're talking so you remember animal house with the evil and the good on the shoulders? David Friedberg (00:15:55): I had that last night and the evil one. Tom Emmer (00:15:59): Well, I got the libertarian Yeah. And the, republican with a small r on either one. David Friedberg (00:16:04): Libertarian always wins for me. But yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:16:05): Well Tom Emmer (00:16:06): and it it it used to for me. But I realized that I was a republican with a small r when I was doing a radio show with an anarchist for several months, and all he ever said was shut her down. She's pumping mud. And he's like, no. I must be a Republican. I the libertarian says absolutely. Okay. I the Republican with a small r, I I think the key is gonna be we have the greatest financial system, markets here in the United States in the world. We have an existing legacy 2 tier banking system. It needs to come into the 21st century. The beauty of crypto to me is not just that it's crypto. 1, it's going to help us if congress does its job, if we put some parameters up, market structure, you know, give people rules of the road so they know what they can and can't do and who's gonna be, having responsibility for oversight. We can protect the existing 2 tier legacy system Yeah. And allow it time to move into the 21st century. I think the the key is and this is why the, central bankers are so worried. This is so disruptive and potentially destructive that they're scared to death. It's not just losing their power. They're they're afraid that, this decentralization is gonna somehow, send finance back to the, Jason Calacanis (00:17:25): social media. Also concerned that consumers, maybe who are not super sophisticated or new to it, might lose their money. And yesterday, Trump launched a $30,000,000,000 Yeah. Coin, which we refer to on the Internet as a coin or a meme coin. Are you troubled by him doing something like that? Was that a wise decision on his part? Tom Emmer (00:17:45): I don't know. Time will tell about that. He seems to make some pretty good decisions they've, Jason Calacanis (00:17:50): they've done better for him. Work on the regulations for that. Tom Emmer (00:17:52): So We do. Jason Calacanis (00:17:52): If he can do that, can we all just do it? And take any Chamath Palihapitiya (00:17:56): Oh, you you could have done Jason Calacanis (00:17:57): that too. Oh, well, it was the the SEC previously would have, actually gone after you for, taking money from retail investors. Tom Emmer (00:18:06): Ding dong, the witch is dead. Now we're gonna be moving forward with the new SEC. Jason Calacanis (00:18:10): Got it. Okay. So YOLO? What's that? YOLO? YOLO. You only live once. Just go for it. Tom Emmer (00:18:20): Hard time because I don't know all those cute quips. Jason Calacanis (00:18:23): Yeah. But you're you're cool with it. You're cool with hitting doing the coin 24 hours before Tom Emmer (00:18:27): I have no problem. Did you see the meme that said that Baron apparently had his dad's phone last night and made a $1,000,000,000? David Friedberg (00:18:34): I love the Baron meme. They're my favorite. What's happening? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:37): They call him the Lisan Al Gaib, which if you like if you watch Dune, he's like he's the savior that sent in Dune to basically save all of us. Jason Calacanis (00:18:46): It's it's definitely gonna be an interesting 4 years. Let's talk about that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:49): Jason is about to implode, congressman. Yeah. No. No. Is in melting down in stock. David Friedberg (00:18:53): Has a big negative bias against, these coins. Jason Calacanis (00:18:56): No. No. No. I I have a bias against stealing from David Friedberg (00:18:58): Meanwhile, you want every retail you want every retail investor to have access to buy startups and Jason Calacanis (00:19:03): because that that'll benefit you. David Friedberg (00:19:04): But when it comes to coins, you're like, oh, no one should be able to do that. Well, I'm gonna address that. Jason Calacanis (00:19:07): I think there should be a sophisticated investor test where people learn about things like diversification. They learn who owns 80% of the coins that have just been dumped on retail, and, under what circumstance they can sell them. And, you know, there is a a a legitimate issue here that, foreign adversaries could just buy these coins and influence the president. I think that's a real concern that people should buy. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:19:30): So you can diminish it. David Friedberg (00:19:31): No. No. From you're actually not. Jason Calacanis (00:19:32): No. I actually a real issue. David Friedberg (00:19:34): I actually agree with you. Like, securities regulations require and when you do an IPO, you file an s one Chamath Palihapitiya (00:19:39): Yes. David Friedberg (00:19:39): And you disclose who owns the shares Yes. And it has to go on a regulated exchange so you know who the buyers of the shares are. So I do actually think your framework is pretty reasonable that Oh, okay. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:19:48): Yeah. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:19:48): I thought Jason Calacanis (00:19:48): you were just mocking me. David Friedberg (00:19:49): Well, I do mock each other. Yeah. Okay. In addition, I was wondering if Jason Calacanis (00:19:51): Let's go to the next one then. David Friedberg (00:19:52): No. No. I do think that's right. Jason Calacanis (00:19:53): You brought up the border. Steve Bannon says Tom Emmer (00:19:56): No. I did. Jason Calacanis (00:19:58): You did. You said the border was one of Tom Emmer (00:19:59): the most recent ones in his, his Jason Calacanis (00:20:02): mandate. Yeah. So let's talk about that part of the mandate that you brought up. Steve Bannon says, David Friedberg (00:20:07): he's Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:07): doing a great job today's moderator. David Friedberg (00:20:08): Does he? You're doing a great Tom Emmer (00:20:09): job today's moderator. Does he? You're doing a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:09): great job. I think David Friedberg (00:20:09): he's the only one that's left. Good. Tom Emmer (00:20:11): Yeah. See, they knock you down and Ro Khanna (00:20:12): then they build David Friedberg (00:20:13): you up. Jason Calacanis (00:20:13): It's all good. I'm not paying attention to them. I'm paying attention David Friedberg (00:20:15): to you. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:16): This is bad. Management. Jason Calacanis (00:20:18): Steve Bannon said he wants all 15 out day 1. So what's going on? Steve Miller says America is for Americans and Americans only. Do you believe 15,000,000 people should be dragged out of this country day 1 like Steve Bannon and Steve Miller? Tom Emmer (00:20:32): I I think we should look at what the, American people think. So, New York Times, of all outlets, had a poll that said, it's like 80%. I believe that criminals, terrorists, people who have committed a bad offenses should be the hell out of here. Jason Calacanis (00:20:48): Yeah. Easy one to have consensus on you. Tom Emmer (00:20:50): No. But then it starts Jason Calacanis (00:20:51): to drop down. Tom Emmer (00:20:52): Yeah. Which is, the next one is, oh, I forget what the second one is. It drops down about 60. But 55% of Americans believe any illegal immigrant should be out of here. How many? 55%. 55% is Ro Khanna (00:21:06): in a New York Times poll. Jason Calacanis (00:21:08): Uh-huh. What do you think that'll do to the economy? You brought up inflation, and we have to tame that. We have 4% unemployment, the lowest of our lifetimes. David Friedberg (00:21:15): Can I just tell you agricultural, labor costs have climbed by probably 3 x in the last 4, 5 years? Jason Calacanis (00:21:22): Yeah. David Friedberg (00:21:22): It's and there's not enough labor to address kind of agricultural production needs in this country, particularly in specialty crops, because it's the world I I work in. How do we get a kind of address both the kind of economy economic demand for labor in this country and address this kind Tom Emmer (00:21:37): of immigration challenge? You don't fix your labor problem with, illegal immigration. You fix it by fixing your immigration system and making sure that it's working the way it's supposed to. By the way, I come from the state of Minnesota. The 2 primary drivers of our state's private economy are manufacturing and ag. I mean, I I've got huge, operations, of families that have bound together as a coop that they literally have to bring in foreign workers. And they they built a village housing. They, have teachers. Right. But there's there's the solution. This idea and I come from Minnesota, which is why you made the hair on the back of my neck stand up. The the argument is, oh, illegals. People who are here illegally and their advocates are bracing for Trump's arrival. And then they write an article that says, if they remove all these people, our economy is gonna tank. Stop it. You you you've got laws for a reason. You gotta enforce the laws that are on the books, and if they don't work, this is why we passed the strongest border bill in 20 years with 222 members in the last congress, which Chuck Schumer never looked at. They they wanted to say that Trump killed the bipartisan bill. You realize the house bill did 5 things, finish the wall, reform the parole process, reform asylum, end catch and release, and restore remain in Mexico. Those were the 5 pillars. That so called bipartisan bill actually codified catch and release, said that if you don't have emergency authority on the border until you have 5,000 plus one coming across a day. Jason Calacanis (00:23:10): So we said Tom Emmer (00:23:11): have That's an answer. Jason Calacanis (00:23:12): We seem to have, you know, pretty solid consensus here and in the country. Criminals who are basically committing 2 crimes, whatever crime they committed here and come across the border illegally, they have no standing, they go. But you seem to be, hunting and not answering the question of, should the 14,500,000 other people be dragged out of the country in year 1. So maybe you can answer that one. David Friedberg (00:23:32): That means a journalist. Tom Emmer (00:23:33): I I'm I'm telling you right now that Trump Trump was elected Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:37): to get Jason Calacanis (00:23:37): this done. You think, though? You are from a state where it's gonna be highly unpopular. Tom Emmer (00:23:41): I I don't think you should be here if you're illegal. Jason Calacanis (00:23:43): So all 4 all 15,000,000 gotta go in year 1. Tom Emmer (00:23:46): I don't think you should be here if you're illegal. Now you're you're painting with a pretty broad brush. I know. I don't know what specific, Jason Calacanis (00:23:53): situation Bannon and Steve Miller have said. So I'm just quoting their words. Tom Emmer (00:23:57): Again, I think the, the goal is to make sure What David Friedberg (00:24:00): do you think Jamie Vance Jamie Vance came on our show, and he said, hey. You gotta do the first thing first and, you know, then the second thing second. There it's not all gonna happen on day 1. But, yeah, it's gonna be Jason Calacanis (00:24:08): Well, I'm trying to interpret that, but you're No. You're you're straight. David Friedberg (00:24:11): So Tom Emmer (00:24:11): Well, actually, I resent that. I am being straight. I will tell you straight. David Friedberg (00:24:14): Adversarial No. I just wanna know you if the Jason Calacanis (00:24:16): this is a I think there's a lot of Americans who wanna know if 15,000,000 people are literally gonna be dragged out. This is a big question for the American people. Are you going to drag 50,000,000 people out of the country or not? Because Stephen Miller, who seems to be, you know, a big part of this administration, and Steve Bannon, who was the architect of the previous administration, say that's actually gonna happen. People are actually nervous about David Friedberg (00:24:35): that. This is when we need Sachs here to check you, to fact check you on whether those guys have said that. Tom Emmer (00:24:39): And the the problem is you're using terms like drag them out. David Friedberg (00:24:42): Right. Tom Emmer (00:24:42): No. I mean, they're gonna start with the worst of the worst. In JD's, answer, you start with those because you know that this is going to have an emotional aspect to it. And that's what I'm And guess Chamath Palihapitiya (00:24:52): what? Yeah. Tom Emmer (00:24:52): If you start doing it the way you're supposed to do it, I'm gonna suggest to you that a lot of them are gonna leave voluntarily. And then if we fix the system that we have, then we can start to restore this David Friedberg (00:25:03): By the way, that's already happening because I've heard from a lot of agricultural leaders. They're seeing labor depart anticipation of the administrative change, and a lot of labor is very scared of what's happening. They don't wanna be caught. They just came here for work. These are individuals who came to this country to work. They are employed, whether legally or illegally, to do work that's in demand in this country, and they're worried they're gonna go to jail, so they're leaving. And and And then there's a massive absence right Chamath Palihapitiya (00:25:25): now in David Friedberg (00:25:25): production. Particularly in rural areas. There's a massive absence right now of labor that's really critical to a lot of those farming economies. And a lot of people in the agricultural sector are very nervous about what's about to happen in the impact. But let me ask you another question. Do you think in in the line with Elon's point of view and some of the stuff that's been promoted that there's a big push by the Democrats to keep the borders open to create more voting Democrats in this country, that that's a big reason or rationale for the alternative of, you know, having illegal immigration and then converting everyone to legal? Tom Emmer (00:25:54): I think it's I I think it's more basic than that. I do think there's a political element to it. States like Minnesota where the, where the traditional educated, what entrepreneur Yep. Is leaving. They're being replaced with, in many cases, with illegals. Yep. Right? Because we are a sanctuary state. David Friedberg (00:26:16): Right. Tom Emmer (00:26:17): So they come into Minnesota whether they vote or not, that it there is a big there's a big argument that, yes, many of them are. Yeah. But I think the bigger issue is how congress is, divided up. You're losing. You're hollowing out whether you're Illinois or you're New York. You're hollowing out your state. They bring illegals in, and, incredibly, our census calculates them in the, the numbers. David Friedberg (00:26:42): That doesn't make sense. Tom Emmer (00:26:43): No. So you got these blue states that That's the gerrymandering cartel just David Friedberg (00:26:46): to try to reverse. Yeah. I guess that's a longer conversation. We probably need to wrap up in a minute. I never heard of said that word. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:26:52): I have a totally different question, something more fun. The job of whip was totally romanticized after house of cards. Jason Calacanis (00:26:58): Is that Tom Emmer (00:26:59): romantic? You got to kill people? David Friedberg (00:27:00): Well, no. Because you had you had Spacy you Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:03): had Spacy in this really David Friedberg (00:27:04): famous scene You got an interesting calling the Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:04): whip and saying, when I was whip, my the whip and saying, when I was whipped, my job was to whip the votes. And then he was screaming into the phone, whip the votes. And I just remember this thinking, now that seems like a really cool job. Jason Calacanis (00:27:17): His nickname is Chairman Dictator, just so you know. He was voted like number 1 commentator by Xi Jinping in the Teddy's Communist Party in the David Friedberg (00:27:24): 1st year of the final I Jason Calacanis (00:27:25): have a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:26): lot of important people in this afternoon. Yes. David Friedberg (00:27:27): Yeah. But but just Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:30): the job of Whip, is it as enjoyable as it sounds? Tom Emmer (00:27:33): So everybody likes to say to me, you've got the worst job in Washington, DC. I think the speaker has the worst job in Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:38): Washington DC. Yeah. Tom Emmer (00:27:39): That guy can be having a great day, and he's got all kinds of people that are just throwing sandwiches at him all Jason Calacanis (00:27:44): the time. Tom Emmer (00:27:45): The majority leader, does a calendar, manages the floor, works with the chairs. Great job. The whip, you don't get to do anything those guys wanna do unless we can actually get it across the floor. And and the the world has changed. You know, they I think I know they elected me because they thought my personality is very direct. I am from, Minnesota. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:28:06): Well, I get the sense that you're incredibly effective and you could whip the votes. Tom Emmer (00:28:09): What? But it's you just gotta be honest and you gotta respect everybody. And and it's a different world because we probably have 40% of our members who will vote for whatever Mike Johnson says we're gonna put on the floor. Eric Swalwell (00:28:19): Mhmm. Tom Emmer (00:28:19): But we got 60%. And this is what's been changing, I think, over the last couple of decades. It keeps getting larger. They didn't come here to follow somebody. They came here to to lead. To represent their people. And they need to be involved in the process. And and what I tell them all the time, I don't care if you like each other. I don't care if you despise one another. I don't care if you socialize together or the second you walk out of here, you run to 2 polar opposite places. When you're here, the American people elected Donald Trump, and we have the benefit of, a majority. You're whipping the votes. But that's what it is. And I I tell them, you gotta get over yourself. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:28:55): Yeah. We're Tom Emmer (00:28:55): gonna let everybody participate in the process. We're gonna take all of your ideas. We put the, the more centrist part of our our our majority and the more, right wing part of our party together. And that that list of, savings cuts offsets I was talking about, we privately run that through small groups one at a time so that they can talk to each other. So that if if you come from a ruby red district down south and I come from a, you know, swingy swingy district in New York, we can have a conversation about why I can and can't do something and why you will and won't do something. And at the end of the day, this is how you're successful. Everybody wants to be involved. It's it's hard only from the aspect that you you can't afford to leave anyone behind. Last question. When you saw the Chamath Palihapitiya (00:29:47): last week was pretty prolific in terms of the senate confirmation hearings that started. I think we're still waiting to figure out when Bobby's gonna come up. Like, do you see any pushback? Who do you think David Friedberg (00:29:58): Who might not make it? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:29:59): Who might not make it? I think everybody's making it. Tom Emmer (00:30:01): And I I think anybody, that listens to you guys or anything that interview where they start say bringing this up, we gotta remind people, this has been the left's playbook since Robert Bork. Yeah. They started it with Robert Bork. They took him out of his supreme court appointment. They, they did it to, Clarence Thomas. Mhmm. They really did it to Kavanaugh. And look at this. Now they've moved it to cabinet picks. Eric Swalwell (00:30:27): Right. Tom Emmer (00:30:28): And and Pete Hegseth is a great example. Right. None of us is perfect, but all of that was anonymous. And I think once it started going through the process and somebody asked me this question a few weeks ago. I said, yeah. They're starting with Pete. Pete's gonna get, he's gonna get through the process. They'll move on to Tulsa, then they'll move on to Bobby Kennedy Junior. Ro Khanna (00:30:46): Right. Tom Emmer (00:30:47): Those will probably be their their their biggest ones that they'll attack. David Friedberg (00:30:50): Yeah. Right. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:30:51): I mean, my my perspective on this is that to your point, in the absence of somebody being compromised, it's not an ideological difference that should stop cabinet picks on either side. Whoever is the president should get to pick their team. Put the team on the field. That's the mandate he was given by the people, and then the people should get to vote. It up there. Jason Calacanis (00:31:07): It's supposed David Friedberg (00:31:07): to be an advisory capacity. Right? I mean, the Tom Emmer (00:31:09): It is. Congressional law. It is. But the beauty of what Donald Trump is doing, you can't fix what's broken with people that broke it. He's going outside of this, godforsaken place and bringing people in that have have completely new ideas whether you like them or not. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:25): Right. Tom Emmer (00:31:25): Come on, folks. Let's see what this does. We've been doing the same thing now for years. David Friedberg (00:31:29): Which, by the way, is what happened 250 years ago when this Okay. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:32): Wait. Congressman, last week. Okay. Ro Khanna (00:31:33): This is David Friedberg (00:31:33): The congress that Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:34): last Give us give us the Give us the reduct last one. And opinion. You said you listened to the fire episode that we did. But just general, from the outside in as a Minnesotan looking at California, just diagnose what's going on there. Tom Emmer (00:31:46): It's it's more complicated than the right and the left wanna make it seem. But, there definitely is a problem. It's not just limited to California. It's across this country with not managing our resources the way we should. We had this problem in Northern Minnesota probably 20 years ago, 25 years ago. We had a blow down in the BWCA, the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. You had all those trees, laying down. They were kindling. Right? And, I think our governor at the time, Jesse Ventura, said he was gonna go in there and he was gonna log it. Right? So we could protect the, citizens and their property, and we could actually make use of these, trees that have been destroyed in the storm. The federal government told him he couldn't do it. And, of course, we've had fires. Right? California, this is tragic. My brother-in-law sent me a picture. He lives in Woodland Hills. He sent me a picture of flames at the end of his cul de sac above the bottom. David Friedberg (00:32:42): My parents lived. They probably lived a couple blocks from each other. Yeah. In Woodland Hills. Yeah. The fire stopped 2 blocks from their house. Tom Emmer (00:32:48): Yeah. That's the picture he took. David Friedberg (00:32:49): Yeah. Well, they might Did Tom Emmer (00:32:51): the winds just take? David Friedberg (00:32:52): No. So they, the the the the Ventura County line comes up to right there. Yeah. And the fire department didn't and I I Cal Fire and Fire Department are incredible. They stopped it from entering the neighborhood. That's amazing. It was amazing. Yeah. Very amazing. I don't Tom Emmer (00:33:04): know how his house is still standing based on the picture he sent. Jason Calacanis (00:33:06): Yeah. Thomas has been amazing. He fit right in here. I appreciate the honesty and candidness, and we'd love to have you back anytime. Tom Emmer (00:33:12): I appreciate the conflict. I love that. David Friedberg (00:33:14): Well, I Jason Calacanis (00:33:14): mean, the American people have This Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:16): is why we love Jay Cutler. Well, he David Friedberg (00:33:17): got he got motivated. We went to a Spotify dinner last night, and they were talking about journalism. He's like, I'm a journalist. I'll show you guys. I can be journalism. I don't wanna Jason Calacanis (00:33:23): I think it's a really important conversation, and, you know, I I the one thing I'm a little concerned with is, just some clarity. Because Trump has an ability to say things in a in a in a bold way, in an effervescent way. And then, you know, sometimes these things actually affect people, and they they want a little more clarity. Tom Emmer (00:33:42): So Well and the whip has, has to find clarity amongst 219 people. Jason Calacanis (00:33:48): Yeah. Good luck with that job. Appreciate it. David Friedberg (00:33:51): Thank you. Thank you. You guys are fun. Great. Thanks. Jason Calacanis (00:33:55): Okay, everybody. Welcome back to the all in podcast. We're here for the inauguration of Donald Trump in his 2nd term, and we're delighted to have Eric Swalwell with us today. He is obviously the house representative from California in the Democratic party. You guys got East Bay? David Friedberg (00:34:11): East Bay. Jason Calacanis (00:34:12): East Bay. David Friedberg (00:34:12): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:34:13): You guys got shellacked this time around. David Friedberg (00:34:15): You said It Tom Emmer (00:34:15): wasn't great. Eric Swalwell (00:34:16): It wasn't good. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:34:17): What are the lessons that the Democratic party can take from this? I will, insert myself into this a little bit. I'm a moderate Yeah. Who's voted Democrat 2 out of 3 times. I was absolutely really disappointed. Yeah. I'll I'll just leave it at that, that you didn't have a speed run primary, that Biden was put up when he was clearly in cognitive decline. And I'm absolutely disgusted by the Democratic party's, hatred of successful entrepreneurs in this country. You've kinda lost me as somebody who voted 2 out of 3 times. Why has the Democratic party left me somebody who, you know, 2 out of 3 times David Friedberg (00:35:03): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:35:03): Would vote democrat, and now you hate as a party entrepreneurship, winning, and you you you seem to hate democracy, and you won't even have a primary. Eric Swalwell (00:35:14): Jesus Christ. Don't hate democracy. Jason Calacanis (00:35:16): No. But this is my perception. I think David Friedberg (00:35:17): a lot of Democrats feel this way. We just Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:19): lose you. David Friedberg (00:35:19): Silicon Valley demands a lot of folks. Silicon Valley demands a lot of folks. Like a lot of places. No. I mean, this is across the board. There's a lot of middle Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:25): of the road folks that just Yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:35:26): Yeah. We we need a story that connects with everyday Americans. I think when you look at a lot of the policies that we, like, believe in, and you look at polling and focus groups, people will be like, oh, yeah. I like that. I like that. I like that. But our story right now, I I don't think we know who we are and who we're fighting for. Now so it is, to me, exciting that we can go through this reset and renovation to find that story that connects. I'm a blue collar kid. I was raised by a cop and a mom who had 6 different jobs. I was the first in my family to go to college. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:02): I like to think you were raised by 2 Republicans. Tom Emmer (00:36:04): Yeah. I was they they Eric Swalwell (00:36:05): they were they are were and are 2 Republicans, and I've got 3 little brothers who are cops. And I grew up in Dublin, California. Everyone called it scrumbling until we invested, there and we saw success. What was Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:18): your ideological change growing up in a Republican household of cops, essentially Yeah. To becoming a you know, you're a bit of a Democratic poster boy. Eric Swalwell (00:36:30): Well, that's that's only because I've gone after Donald Trump. But if you look, I ran against the most liberal member of Congress, Pete Stark. I have been a pretty independent vote in Congress and I root for success of entrepreneurs and business and wanna connect that success to the people who work hard at those businesses so everyone does well. And I think if we're just perceived as rooting against success overall and vilify people who are successful, then no one can be successful if if that's the case. David Friedberg (00:37:02): Did you Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:02): like, or not like? No. Did you agree with Biden's framing as he was leaving about this tech oligarchy? Eric Swalwell (00:37:10): It's only an oligarchy if working class folks don't benefit from it. So if that's what it becomes, then that that's a problem. What I wanna see, and I think what you all are rooting for, is that anyone, if you work hard, work your ass off, you should do better for yourself and dream bigger for your kids. And I think we have an opportunity to do that. The president, the president-elect has an opportunity, to make that happen. And where he tries to do that, he'll find, a partner in me. But do we have this, branding issue? Yes. No. I I think David Friedberg (00:37:43): that should Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:44): be What is the branding issue? Jason Calacanis (00:37:45): Yeah. Let's take a David Friedberg (00:37:45): look at the branding issue. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:47): The wokeism, is it the judgmentalism, is it the sanctimonious pandering, is it the moral grandstanding? You have to Eric Swalwell (00:37:52): be perfect and pure is what the perception is right now. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:55): But nobody's perfect. Tom Emmer (00:37:56): No. No. Eric Swalwell (00:37:56): No. That's the percept of of people who, like, sort of, like, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:38:00): sort of, like, sort of, of Eric Swalwell (00:38:01): course, we're not perfect and and pure, but I think the perception is that to be a Democrat, you have to check all these purity boxes, and then you can be a part of the party. And right now, the Republican party is, like, I think the exact opposite. It's like, do you like Donald Trump? Great. Come to the party. And so By the way, if Jason Calacanis (00:38:20): you don't like Trump, can we get you on these three policies? And you can still come to Peter Thiel's party. David Friedberg (00:38:25): Sure. Jason Calacanis (00:38:25): I have never been more courted by a political party than Trump's, and I have never been more hated than I've been by the Democratic party. Eric Swalwell (00:38:32): Well, that's wrong. It shouldn't make people feel that way. Jason Calacanis (00:38:34): Chamath feels that way, I think he was a major donor. You guys are talking about having a a dumb donor. You guys are saying you should have a a Joe Rogan, equivalent. You had Joe Rogan. David Friedberg (00:38:45): He wasn't there. A democrat. Jason Calacanis (00:38:46): If you David Friedberg (00:38:46): want to call him Joe, if they were all Jason Calacanis (00:38:48): He had Bernie Sanders on. David Friedberg (00:38:49): He wanted to have Hillary You guys fumbled it. You guys Jason Calacanis (00:38:52): had Elon Musk. You fumbled it. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:38:54): Well, say the party fumbled it. Maybe you can comment. Well, here, Jason Calacanis (00:38:57): you you represent the party. And we have Let's talk about rebuilding. Eric Swalwell (00:39:00): And we have a this is a we have opportunity to rebuild that. And so on, for example, the Department of Government Efficiency, like, we should root for government to be more efficient and we should try and enable that. But, like, if that effort goes into an area where it's going to cut social security or cut, you know, Medicare, then I think you'll see us be guardians against that. But, like, most small businesses think it's pretty hard to start a small business and then even once you do, you don't have the resources that bigger businesses do. And they see regulations as what gets in the way. So we should try and knock them down. Jason Calacanis (00:39:36): What's happening in the party? Like, what what are you guys doing? Or is it just headless as an organization? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:39:42): Yeah. Who runs the Democratic Party? Eric Swalwell (00:39:43): I would say in in the house right now, Hakim Jeffries, has been pretty effective at at uniting us. And and even in the last congress, you saw something that you've never seen before in any congress in our country, any parliament in the world, which is the minority party delivered the majority votes on every vote of consequence. So keeping the government open, lifting that that ceiling which which the incoming president now supports, which we welcome that and we'd love to get rid of it, by the way. You know, the funding of, even the funding, you know, to Israel, that that moved forward because, Democrats were unified, on that front. So I think Hakim has shown himself as, like, a practical negotiator, someone who can work with Chamath Palihapitiya (00:40:28): senator Johnson. But I think the the the other fair commentary is he's young and he's inexperienced. What I mean by leadership is Yeah. Who who is the elder statesman that can Yeah. Help push and cajole and influence the Democratic party to find a more solid ground? Eric Swalwell (00:40:47): I think one of David Friedberg (00:40:47): I think Eric Swalwell (00:40:48): one of our best thought leaders is Mark Cuban. I I think he's Mark Cuban. Mark Cuban. Yeah. He he's very influential. David Friedberg (00:40:54): We Eric Swalwell (00:40:54): have a lot of relationships with my colleagues, and myself. He has business experience, but I think he's also not lost touch of, like, what regular people care about. And I thought he was a defective surrogate, for Kamala, being out there on the trail. But I I go to Mark on a lot of stuff, and I think he, understands where most people are. David Friedberg (00:41:17): How did Kamala get selected? How does Eric Swalwell (00:41:19): she get select so she was vice president, and the runway was about a 100 days. And I we can go through the different scenarios. I don't think any of them were good. And as you said, if if your premise is that president Biden should not have run for reelection, Making that decision that close to the election, you know, I don't know if any candidate would David Friedberg (00:41:38): Did you know Eric Schmidt? The GOP primary, like Jake Hall? I Eric Swalwell (00:41:44): we could go through a 100 scenarios. There are a bunch of great candidates. I I still think all of them would have probably been set up to fail. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:50): Did you It's too Eric Swalwell (00:41:51): too short of a runway. So Did Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:53): in your interactions with the president, did you say to yourself, gosh, what's going on here? Eric Swalwell (00:41:59): I I didn't. And my colleagues and I, I don't think we interacted with him that often. And and we kind of, you know, we started his presidency in COVID. And so the Joe Biden that I knew when I was a baby, you know, child in the congress in in 2013 was very engaged and, you know, loved meeting with congress. And the meetings would go an hour over the time allotted, and it was kind of that Bill Clinton charm offensive that he could put on. And I will just tell you, like, the 1st 2 years with the COVID restrictions that we had, we didn't see that because we, you know, we would have remote meetings with the White House. And so, Jason Calacanis (00:42:40): also They hit him. They hit him. Eric Swalwell (00:42:42): I I don't yeah. I don't know. I I know I know where I know where we are now. Jason Calacanis (00:42:45): Reports are, he was gate count. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:42:47): Yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:42:48): Yeah. Like I said, I'm I'm They Jason Calacanis (00:42:49): managed him. Eric Swalwell (00:42:50): Focus on the future. Tom Emmer (00:42:58): Committee? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:42:58): Yes. Let's talk about TikTok. David Friedberg (00:43:00): Yes. Yeah. Okay. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:43:01): Done and dusted. What what do you Eric Swalwell (00:43:04): think be back tomorrow. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:43:06): Might. Yeah. Might not. Yeah. You're you're in the room and these things happen. There are these off the record, I guess, intelligence briefings that happen. And, this was a 9 O unanimous Supreme Court decision. It was an overwhelming majority in Congress. Can you just help us understand what needs to happen for something like those two events to happen? Yeah. It would just be general. You don't have to say specifically, obviously, and disclose anything that you know, but we're just trying to understand how does something, when it's such a rancorous Congress, which can't seem to agree on anything, or a Supreme Court, which tends to be 5 4 on every issue, finds a 9 0 and a super majority in Congress. Can you just help us understand? Eric Swalwell (00:43:48): So the Supreme Court was not saying whether we should ban or not ban TikTok. They were saying that Congress voted, president signed Chamath Palihapitiya (00:43:55): Correct. Eric Swalwell (00:43:55): And there's no way around Yeah. This ban. So they I think they were just following Mhmm. The law. I voted against the ban. I think China is the place where you ban things. And and the problems that I have with TikTok, as a father of, like, 3 little kids, are the problems that I have with Meta. And the problems that I have with yeah. It also David Friedberg (00:44:15): So you don't view it you don't view it as a security risk for the United States? Eric Swalwell (00:44:18): And and I look to Jim Himes, who is the senior democrat on the intelligence committee, the ranking member. David Friedberg (00:44:24): He's in Eric Swalwell (00:44:24): what's called the gang of 8. He has the most exquisite access to intelligence, and Jim voted against the ban. And I thought, you know what? If this guy has not seen anything on the national security level Chamath Palihapitiya (00:44:36): There was an off the record or confidential briefing to the House of Tel Aviv. So you think in that meeting, there was nothing that was very meaningful that was disclosed about TikTok? Eric Swalwell (00:44:45): Nothing that I had seen. Is it owned by the Chinese government? Absolutely. But is there a national security risk? I have not seen that. Jason Calacanis (00:44:54): Hold on a second, though. I mean, if the Chinese government owns a 100,000,000 plus American phones, their location data, access to their microphones, access to their cameras, how is that not a security risk? And where I mean, that seems incredibly naive to say that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:45:10): I wanna I wanna build on what you've been saying. We know that there are security vulnerabilities, for example, in WhatsApp. It's riddled with stuff. So, you know, you could send a PDF before, then you could send an image. Now you can just send a message and you can root your phone. The difference is WhatsApp is owned by an American citizen. I really and so what which is to say all these apps are compromised. It's just that the TikTok is owned by a Chinese owner who is out of the reach of the United States government. Eric Swalwell (00:45:37): Yeah. And and Chamath Palihapitiya (00:45:38): Is that fair or unfair to you? Eric Swalwell (00:45:39): It is out of the reach of the United States government. David Friedberg (00:45:41): But what Eric Swalwell (00:45:42): I will say is most of what we buy as far as, you know, what's in our basket at Walmart is has a Chinese component David Friedberg (00:45:50): that What's Jason Calacanis (00:45:50): in our basket doesn't have a microphone or your GPS? David Friedberg (00:45:53): Well, let me just say A lot of it does. Have you seen a lot of stuff Eric Swalwell (00:45:58): you buy? The drones. David Friedberg (00:45:59): The Chinese made drones. There's a whole website now. There's a whole website now that that breaks down modern consumer electronics from China Yeah. That actually have these hacking devices built into them. I don't know if you've seen them. Yeah. No. No. I mean Like, you'll you'll buy, like, a USB charger that's, like, $8 on Qumu or something. And it's inside it's got, like, an IP address, and it actually finds Wi Fi. It connects, and it transmits it. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:46:19): This is an incredible day. David Friedberg (00:46:20): And and, like, there's so many and I bought this, like, cheap drone for, like, Christmas. Someone, for, like anyway, one of my little nephews brought it. And I'm like, dude, this thing is, like, a $149. And I looked it up online. It's, like, got camera, connects to your Wi Fi, and then it asked for access to your phone. Oh, Dave. And I'm like, I'm not doing that. Like Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:37): I tweeted this a few months ago. David Friedberg (00:46:38): Like, I don't think TikTok's the issue. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:40): The USB c charging cables. David Friedberg (00:46:42): Exactly. Yeah. Those can be hijacked. Yeah. They're they're rooted. But charging cables yes. This is Jason Calacanis (00:46:47): more reason to ban this. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:50): Speculative. No. David Friedberg (00:46:51): I don't but I don't think TikTok Eric Swalwell (00:46:52): I guess my point is like Jason Calacanis (00:46:53): we yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:46:53): TikTok You wanna ban everything that's made in China. That's great. You'll destroy the David Friedberg (00:46:56): economy. Exactly. Jason Calacanis (00:46:57): But one thing has a 100,000,000 people in an algorithm that could influence people's perception David Friedberg (00:47:01): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:47:01): That, you know, that Hamas is being harassed by the Israelis. Like, they they literally can change how Americans, especially young ones, perceive the world. Even if they're not doing it currently, do you not see how obvious it is that they can use it? David Friedberg (00:47:20): Necessarily? Censorship point Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:21): of view, which is David Friedberg (00:47:22): No. No. I want his role as control. Jason Calacanis (00:47:24): Let's get his in. Yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:47:25): I guess I'm the only one of the 4 of us that doesn't wanna ban speech. David Friedberg (00:47:28): Yeah. I'm no. I'm not No. I'm with you. I don't Jason Calacanis (00:47:30): I wanna speak. I wanna ban I want either reciprocity where we can put our apps in China or I want it gone. Well, then you guys are now making David Friedberg (00:47:38): a different case. Now you're saying it's, like, reciprocity as opposed to controlling first, you were saying it's security, then you're saying it's, like, controlling our point of view. Now you're saying reciprocity. You're like, those aren't the same thing. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:49): Here's the thing. David Friedberg (00:47:50): Security security risk likely lies everywhere. On security? I think I'm controlling the point of view of stuff. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:55): I think you guys have to separate look. TikTok, there are 3 things in TikTok. Okay? There's the content and the content creators. That's one thing. Then there is a network effect, and then there is the vessel, which is the app, okay, which is the code. My very specific point of view is the content creators and the network effect can easily be replicated in other places. The vessel itself is corrupt. And I think if you can't technically see that, it's probably because you just you're not steeped enough in the technology. David Friedberg (00:48:28): The intelligence committee doesn't technically see that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:48:30): So Oh, no. They've seen David Friedberg (00:48:32): Clearly, they're they're not Jason Calacanis (00:48:33): a great company. They've they've been caught. David Friedberg (00:48:35): They've seen tracking, journal, a great hand. Intelligence committee Eric Swalwell (00:48:37): here telling you. Well, but I I also looked at the small business owners who use that as a platform. I understand how you just the buckets that you just created. David Friedberg (00:48:44): People depend on. Eric Swalwell (00:48:45): And more people in the what I was telling the White House was more people watch president Biden's state of the union address on TikTok than anywhere else. And the and president Biden had just gone on TikTok Chamath Palihapitiya (00:48:54): Yeah. Right before this But that you're speaking to is the content and the network. No. Jason Calacanis (00:48:58): I get it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:48:59): So my point is across meta or across x, my preference would be x. You can replicate the network effect, and you can create a mechanism for those content creators who are already on those platforms anyway to shift. My point is the vessel itself is easily worded. I I I told this to president Trump. When we were sitting down, I was like, that phone the microphone on that iPhone can get turned on remotely. You can choose what state actor wants to do it, but I will bet you dollars to donuts, it is inconceivable to me that the NSA did not find that capability. And the reason is not because TikTok is bad or good. The reason is all of these apps are rooted. The only difference is that most of these apps are controlled by American citizens. So there is a control mechanism. And this app is not. Eric Swalwell (00:49:46): I I mean, I think Donald Trump is going to allow TikTok. Jason Calacanis (00:49:49): Well, he got a $50,000,000 donation from Jeff. Yes. Eric Swalwell (00:49:52): That and I think he also recognized I think this Jason Calacanis (00:49:55): is Super PAC. 50,000,000. Eric Swalwell (00:49:56): Yes. And I think the reason he cares is because he knows a lot of his followers Jason Calacanis (00:50:00): are out there. Eric Swalwell (00:50:00): And then for whatever reason, they didn't choose they have not chosen David Friedberg (00:50:02): You know Jason Calacanis (00:50:03): what else David Friedberg (00:50:03): is a very popular export Ro Khanna (00:50:04): from China? Eric Swalwell (00:50:04): Fentanyl. Yeah. And and we probably Jason Calacanis (00:50:07): ban that too. Yeah. Ro Khanna (00:50:07): So we Jason Calacanis (00:50:08): I mean, the fact that it's popular should not be why we are doing. That's why I think you're framing Fentanyl is popular. David Friedberg (00:50:13): It it Eric Swalwell (00:50:14): what I'm saying Jason Calacanis (00:50:14): is you It's addictive, but it's popular. Eric Swalwell (00:50:16): Yeah. Back in the tube. And and so you're take you're gonna take away a platform that is widely used on it. Yeah. By Americans. Jason Calacanis (00:50:21): So it's a weakest not weakest chosen to go Eric Swalwell (00:50:23): to those other ones. And I just don't think we ban things in America. I I think that's This Jason Calacanis (00:50:27): is the Chinese Communist Party. David Friedberg (00:50:28): Jason, if you if you actually Jason Calacanis (00:50:31): didn't They spy on their own citizens. David Friedberg (00:50:33): If your just think about this for a second. If your business depended on you using TikTok, how would you feel about the TikTok? And you're you're you're not simply you're not well I have to assume. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:50:40): I have to assume that if if it is true that the CCP uses the Chinese version of TikTok as a mechanism to surveil their own people, the idea that for an extra few units of resources, they would spy on the most important powerful nation in the world, to me seems pretty illogical and dumb. They're gonna they would do it. And separately, it's not to say that president Trump is using, TikTok per se or, you know, important people, but it is true that when you have enough people use an app and those people come into contact with other people like, look what happens today. How do you exchange contact information with an iPhone? You touch one another. Right? There's an NFC capability to pass code from one to the other. I mean, I just think it's really naive, guys, for us to not assume that technology is very deterministic. There are so many good things that happen, but there are people that are paid to find every single edge and to push it because the stakes are high. And I just think that this is an assumption that we have to live with. Eric Swalwell (00:51:49): I'm just very cautious when it comes to bans. That's Chamath Palihapitiya (00:51:52): That's fair. That's an ideological thing. I and I I get to agree with you. Because because, David Friedberg (00:51:55): Chamock, where this goes is you're like, well, I don't wanna import Korean cars because they've got electronics that are connected to the Internet in every Korean car. Now the Koreans can spy on where we are. I mean, you can very quickly see how this can open up a floodgate of banning because foreign adversaries could take advantage of us. Exactly. Including including banning chip imports, including banning router imports, you could very quickly make this a whole with routers. Ro Khanna (00:52:19): A whole Jason Calacanis (00:52:22): it was 2 days already out David Friedberg (00:52:24): of the port. Telecom equipment. We're gonna go down a very nasty place. Like, if you Okay. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:27): But that that Jason Calacanis (00:52:28): would be down an intelligent route, which is to not give access to all of the personal information of the sons and daughters of representatives of military experts to the Chinese Communist Party. There there is a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:40): reason why Huawei is banned in America. Jason Calacanis (00:52:42): Yes. David Friedberg (00:52:42): Yeah. Security vulnerabilities were found. They don't have our best interests. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:46): You think it stopped there? China, like, gave up and said, okay. David Friedberg (00:52:49): I'm saying there's a different quiz. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:51): Go watch the dance videos now. Jason Calacanis (00:52:52): It's great. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:54): Let the Americans dance. David Friedberg (00:52:55): By the way, it does seem it does seem a little crazy. That's nice. Isn't the US revenue for TikTok for ByteDance, like, 5% If Jason Calacanis (00:53:01): it wasn't a part of the Chinese government, they would have divested. No. David Friedberg (00:53:04): I think Chamath Palihapitiya (00:53:04): it's a 30 over 50. Jason Calacanis (00:53:05): Give up their golden share. David Friedberg (00:53:06): The US is 30.40 Jason Calacanis (00:53:07): Let's move on to the border. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:53:09): Wait. Wait. Doge. We're gonna do Doge. Okay. Let's do Doge. Because you you tell us your point of view on Elon, Vivek Yeah. Coming in, what they're gonna do, what's good about it, what you really don't think is good about it. Jason Calacanis (00:53:20): Concerns? Yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:53:20): Well, so I do think it's funny that a committee about efficiency has 2 people running it. That's but David Friedberg (00:53:27): But I Jason Calacanis (00:53:27): think it's It's quite efficient. Eric Swalwell (00:53:28): It just cut itself in half if with if Vivek's running, you know, for governor. So that is their first success, I guess, you know, to cut, you know, the size of the committee. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:53:36): But they got a lot David Friedberg (00:53:37): of people that they've recruited. Ro Khanna (00:53:38): No. I Eric Swalwell (00:53:38): got yeah. David Friedberg (00:53:38): And, you Eric Swalwell (00:53:38): know, as I said, knock yourself out. If you wanna make it easier for small businesses, you know, to start a business, if you wanna save, you know, money David Friedberg (00:53:47): and fraud Federal employees not showing up to the office. Eric Swalwell (00:53:50): Yeah. Look, I my staff shows up, and and we benefit from people being in the office. We show a lot of flexibility, for people who have family issues, kind of on a case by case basis, and and people with disabilities have more access to work. But I I generally I see the benefits of having everybody at the office. And we were one of the first offices to come back, on the hill, you know, during COVID because I saw the benefit of that. And if they can draw a straight line between, you know, benefiting our constituents and people being in the office, I'm I'm open minded David Friedberg (00:54:24): to that. Mhmm. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:54:25): Eric, tell us about David Friedberg (00:54:27): how Chamath Palihapitiya (00:54:27): you think this reconciliation bill, the budget Yeah. It's gonna be a very knockout drag out kind of a process. We're gonna hit the debt ceiling Yeah. Tomorrow. Yeah. And so you guys are gonna be back to work right away. What do you expect? Eric Swalwell (00:54:42): What I'm going David Friedberg (00:54:43): to be Eric Swalwell (00:54:44): asking my constituents, you know, is tax cuts are proposed and regulations, you know, potentially are cut is, you know, what did you get out of this and what have you lost? Because if it's just, as I said, if it's just kind of a a broligarchy that benefits and and you don't benefit, then I won't support it. But if you can draw the line and say, you know, this business getting this benefit or this corporate tax rate going down means that, you know, you're going to do better and dream bigger. I can be for and and so that's what I'm gonna be looking at. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:17): Do you think generally that governments should generally just have less tax receipts and be forced to spend less to be more ingenious and less over reliant on overpowering things with money? Eric Swalwell (00:55:30): Yes. And and frankly, a lot of that starts with the Department of Defense. I mean, look at where the cost drivers are. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:36): Is that Eric Swalwell (00:55:36): where you go? Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that but that means you need to have alliances in the world. Right? You're gonna have if you're gonna reduce what you spend on defense, you better strengthen your partnerships. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:45): Some people on the Republican side so I think it's a wonderful point. Some people on the Republican side say this is why energy is so important for us because when we have resource independence, it actually allows us to forge and recast many of our relationships abroad that then create a very different security envelope. Eric Swalwell (00:56:00): I just wanna share the Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:02): the rare earth Yeah. Exactly. Eric Swalwell (00:56:03): Minerals caucus. And for this reason, and it probably surprises people that a Bay Area Democrat wants to get the US, you know, back into mining. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:11): Yep. Eric Swalwell (00:56:12): And that's because we're getting our ass kicked by China on this, on the, you know, not just the mining, but the processing and the magnetizing. But we do have allies who have these resources. So we can do it in the United States. There's Mountain Pass, where they're doing it with Jason Calacanis (00:56:27): Defense. Eric Swalwell (00:56:27): Almost a 100%, recycled water, so you don't have the acid pond issue. But you also have countries that you could have So Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:34): I I I helped fund Jim to get that thing off the ground Yeah. Eric Swalwell (00:56:37): I've been out there. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:38): And going. It's an incredible thing. But even he he will tell you, doing these kinds of projects in America today is almost next to impossible. And the reason he was able to do it, I mean, he he has support from folks like you, which are forward thinking, but the reason was because it had already largely been built. Eric Swalwell (00:56:52): Right. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:53): And he said if he had tried to get it permitted. Eric Swalwell (00:56:55): Sure. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:55): And it's just a question, you know, less money for the government, less regulation. It it almost seems like sometimes if the Republicans say yay, the Democrats say nay. And if the Democrats said yay, the Republicans would say nay. But if you ask everybody privately, everybody agrees the government should have less. And to your point, business people should just have more of a wide berth to actually go and work. Eric Swalwell (00:57:16): And then be held to account, as I said, if the wealth is only concentrated the top Right. To your ass off the middle. To ensure Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:22): we can point to people at every part of the economic spectra. Yes. That's like a but that's a very reasonable thing to say what you're saying. Eric Swalwell (00:57:30): Well, I I I hope that's how we govern in in this next Jason Calacanis (00:57:33): But it Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:33): doesn't come out that way. David Friedberg (00:57:34): Well, I Jason Calacanis (00:57:35): think this is a key point What you lead with and what you talk about and what you make a priority, that will be people's perception of your focus. And the perception that I have as somebody who again has voted Democrat 2 out of 3 elections is that you're focused on and talking about things like DEI, things like having trans kids get surgery, and no parent agrees with this. Nobody agrees with this. They're banning it around the world. And you guys lead with that. That shows a lack of prioritization that is palatable to the voting populace. What they want is effective leadership. And when you look at what happened in Southern California, it is the height of arrogance that they're working on things like DEI and saying this is important when the reservoir is not filled, when they're not clearing brush. And you have to make trade offs in the world. And you guys don't seem to be able to communicate that. It's incredibly frustrating for me. You can hear it in my voice that you can't say, you know what? We care about nature. We care about the trees. But you can't have trees on the floor around homes in David Friedberg (00:58:40): a fire zone. Oh, no, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:40): no, no. You said floor. You didn't say ground. So no, I'm gonna not listen to you. David Friedberg (00:58:44): Or we can't get minerals that Jason Calacanis (00:58:47): we're gonna be dependent on China for minerals. We need those minerals. We cannot be dependent on foreign adversaries to make important weapon systems, to make important things like electric vehicles. And you guys are concerned about the cranes and trans kids being able to get surgery that nobody wants. That's the problem with the party. Eric Swalwell (00:59:07): We need a better story. And I don't think Jason Calacanis (00:59:10): you leave focusing on those weird things. Eric Swalwell (00:59:11): Leave that story with the concerns people have with DEI. Although I would argue now the new DEI is Don, Eric, and Ivanka, and people probably won't like that approach to it, either. But Chamath Palihapitiya (00:59:24): that you floating the you're trying oh, Ro Khanna (00:59:26): didn't it? It's a happy David Friedberg (00:59:27): new test. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:59:28): Yeah. I'm not sure, but okay. Eric Swalwell (00:59:29): We need a better story, and I look forward to being Is that the first time? I I workshop. David Friedberg (00:59:33): Did you Eric Swalwell (00:59:34): work with just recently. We could workshop it. Yeah. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:59:36): Yeah. You can have to workshop that one. Thing. Jason Calacanis (00:59:38): No. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:59:38): I mean, listen. Jason Calacanis (00:59:39): There's a long tradition in these parties of the kids being grifters, Hunter. Everybody's getting in on it. But let's let's close on the borders. David Friedberg (00:59:47): No. No. Hold on. Before we do that, I just wanna ask you about, should the United States spend spend $200,000,000,000 to acquire Greenland from Denmark? Eric Swalwell (00:59:54): I don't give a if he tries to acquire Greenland. Jason Calacanis (00:59:57): Now it's Eric Swalwell (00:59:58): I just want the cost of eggs to go down. That's what my constituents are proud. Right? David Friedberg (01:00:01): Knock yourself out. Don't get green money. Security assets. Of course. There's there's there's Eric Swalwell (01:00:05): benefits there. But I I just I wanna know, you said you're gonna lower the cost of eggs. Eggs are pretty expensive. What it like, how are you gonna do that? And if you can tell me that, you know, spending $200,000,000,000 to get Greenland is gonna help lower our cost, great. But I think people wanna see costs come down. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:00:22): I I have a question about today, and I I just wanna actually go back in time. Today, are there any of president Trump's nominees that, really give you agenda? And if so, who and why? Jason Calacanis (01:00:35): Mhmm. And who's inspiring? Give me give some credit if there's something, like, inspiring. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:00:39): Who do you like? Sure. Give us one that inspires you and give us one that you're Eric Swalwell (01:00:42): like I think Rubio is gonna do a great job as secretary of state. He's he has the the gravitas and the experience, to do it, and I wanna I wanna see that happen. Kaush Patel is the one that I I think could destroy the president's agenda because David Friedberg (01:00:57): Can you say more? Eric Swalwell (01:00:58): Well, what I see and and I may be a little bit biased because the guy wrote a book, he listed a 100 enemies. I'm not in that 100. I'm actually in the preamble. He starts it with, of course, Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell are the most dangerous Jason Calacanis (01:01:11): Well, you Chamath Palihapitiya (01:01:11): were part of the house Russia investigation. Eric Swalwell (01:01:13): But I I do believe if if the president focuses on going after his enemies, he's going to lose the ability to bring order to the border Yep. To get the most violent, you know, the most violent undocumented immigrants out of the country David Friedberg (01:01:30): Yeah. Eric Swalwell (01:01:30): And make people feel safe in communities where they don't feel safe. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:01:33): What do you think about Jason's comment? Do you think that we should systematically, work through a process to deport 15,000,000 illegal? Eric Swalwell (01:01:42): I I think you should focus on violent offenders. Jason Calacanis (01:01:46): Yeah. No brainer. Eric Swalwell (01:01:47): Sexual So Chamath Palihapitiya (01:01:47): let's say you get that done in 6 months. What do you do after that? Eric Swalwell (01:01:51): Well, you also need order at the border. Right? I mean and I I support surging resources to bring that, but 40% of my constituents were born outside of the United States. We are the 8th wealthiest district in the country. No thanks to me. I'm not contributing to that wealth. There is a straight line between those immigrants and that wealth. And so if we can find a way to address, you know, shortages in the workforce, in agriculture, hospitality, food and beverage, of course, we see it in biotech and tech. I think we can have the best in the world. I'll just leave it leave you with this. A foreign minister, in Asia said to me, in the past year, he said, Eric, he said, you know, the population of the United States is 3,000,000,000 people. And I looked at him and I said, then you mean it's like 300 +1000000? I thought he misspoke. He said, no. He said, there are 3,000,000,000 people in the world who would give up everything Yes. David Friedberg (01:02:45): To come Eric Swalwell (01:02:45): to the United States. He said, if you get it right, he said, you can pick the best. David Friedberg (01:02:49): That's right. Jason Calacanis (01:02:49): Absolutely. Recruitment as opposed to immigration is a better framework. Eric Swalwell (01:02:54): Yes. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:02:54): Go go go back, please. You mentioned this, the house Russia investigation created a lot of Eric Swalwell (01:02:59): Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:03:01): Talking points on both sides that I think are still lingering. And in the spirit of sort of putting it to bed, any regrets about that whole process? Was there anything substantive that came out of it ultimately, or was it the beginning of this more politically directed kind of action reaction, which is now why people are afraid about what happens? Eric Swalwell (01:03:26): No. Russia had a preferred candidate, and they did a lot to try and get that guy to win. I think he could have and I I think he may regret that in a lot of his trolling, he made himself look guiltier when he probably could have shown us that the concerns we had weren't there. But I I don't I'm not gonna dwell on that. I'm not gonna, you know, focus on the fact that he was impeached twice and sent a mob that, you know, could have killed many of the people in the capital with me on January 6th. I'm gonna focus on if he wants to bring order to the border, make our communities safer, and raise wages and lower costs, I'm gonna work with No. Jason Calacanis (01:04:01): What I meant what I meant was Chamath Palihapitiya (01:04:02): I think that's a great message for you and Adam. Eric Swalwell (01:04:04): Yeah. Work backwards from David Friedberg (01:04:06): Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:04:06): An outcome? Or do you think you and Adam actually just followed the facts and Eric Swalwell (01:04:11): I was a Alameda County prosecutor, in the same office Earl Warren, you know, worked in, and we were trained that it's not about wins and losses. It's just about doing justice. And I approached it just trying to follow the facts. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:04:22): And when you were watching some of the other things that happened post all of this Yeah. Like what's happening in New York and whatnot, what were your thoughts for as a prosecutor on the legal veracity of some of the things that were going on to to Trump leading into this election? Eric Swalwell (01:04:37): A lot of people around him went to jail, and it felt like, well, if Michael Cohen went to jail, like, why the is this guy not being held to account? Like, Michael Cohen went to jail for being a part of that hush money settlement. So, again, just being a blue collar kid who resents people who think that their position entitles them to be better than regular folks, I just wanted everyone to be treated the same. And and so that's the way I was raised. My dad lost his job as a cop when he wouldn't essentially be get bribed. He when he wouldn't allow a bribe from a mayor, to influence him Chamath Palihapitiya (01:05:14): and and he Well, that's amazing. Eric Swalwell (01:05:17): That that was my earliest experience. David Friedberg (01:05:19): We're in Eric Swalwell (01:05:19): a small town in Iowa and he was the police chief. The mayor very publicly tried to, like, corrupt him, and he wouldn't do it. So my earliest memory is that he was willing to lose his job to do the right thing. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:05:31): But you're saying something very important, which is everybody should be treated the same. So Correct. David Friedberg (01:05:34): If no one's working Chamath Palihapitiya (01:05:35): if one of your kids were charged with a misdemeanor, would you hope that it was just prosecuted as a misdemeanor, or do you think that folks that may not like Eric Swalwell figure out a way to now make it a felony? The former. Yeah. Okay. Jason Calacanis (01:05:47): Yeah. Yeah. I mean As Eric Swalwell (01:05:48): I said, I'm I'm going into this open mindedness. David Friedberg (01:05:52): What we Chamath Palihapitiya (01:05:52): can do no. Eric Swalwell (01:05:53): I'm I'm just saying into this new year. Open minded. Not focused on the past on what we can do to make the country succeed. Jason Calacanis (01:05:59): Yeah. And on the border issue, I think that's the one where y'all could maybe get some consensus and some clarity because it really does seem to be creating an underlying tension in the country as to what's gonna happen. Eric Swalwell (01:06:12): And you can't do anything on the workforce issues until the public believes you've secured the border. That's just a whether that's rational or not. Jason Calacanis (01:06:18): How much of that was why you you think Kamala lost? Was just her not taking ownership of the border? Eric Swalwell (01:06:24): I just think she was attached to an incumbent party. Incumbent parties worldwide are just getting pounded, and there wasn't much that was gonna change Eric. Where this thing was going. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:06:34): Eric, what's what's happening in California? Eric Swalwell (01:06:37): It will have Chamath Palihapitiya (01:06:38): Give us the grade on Gavin Newsom and Karen Bassett. David Friedberg (01:06:41): Which Republican will be the next governor of California? Eric Swalwell (01:06:44): Well, they they don't have their together either, by the way, the Republican party in California. Look, I'm I I was in the Palisades on Monday. I have 10 friends who lost everything. I was with a woman who stood on top of a pile of ashes that was her house looking for any memento for her family, and it it's it's awful. And I'll I will also be open minded as to what we could have done to prevented it to prevent it, why resources that should have been there weren't there. And as a member of the Homeland Security Committee, make sure that, you know, we're better prepared next time. And if there is accountability that should have that should come, to be a part David Friedberg (01:07:23): of that. Eric Swalwell (01:07:24): But, like, there's fires are still burning right now, and so I don't wanna be that game where it's like, you know, the guy that like, last week, I was a hostage expert. This week, I'm a wildfire expert. David Friedberg (01:07:33): Well, that's us. Eric Swalwell (01:07:33): Yeah. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (01:07:34): That's our French. Yeah. Eric Swalwell (01:07:35): Yeah. 2 and every My job is is to look at, you know, what we could have done, who should be held accountable. But with the fire still burning and families, you know, living, with friends and relatives right now, I I don't wanna hop I don't wanna give this a hot take yet. Jason Calacanis (01:07:50): Yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. Thank you. Alright, everybody. Eric, we really appreciate your candidness and good luck rebuilding the party. David Friedberg (01:07:56): Thank you. Well done. Best of Jason Calacanis (01:07:58): luck to you. Okay. Thanks. Awesome. Great job, bud. Alright. Welcome back to the All In Podcast at the inauguration of Donald Trump, our 47th president, and we're really delighted to have friend of the pod, Ro Khanna, back on the program. He is the US representative for California's 17th district, aka our hometown, Silicon Valley. How are you, Ro? Ro Khanna (01:08:21): Honored to be back on. You made it big time. You're now, like, in DC, inauguration. David Friedberg (01:08:26): Jason's a republican now. Did you know that? Ro Khanna (01:08:28): You know? Jason Calacanis (01:08:29): I remain a moderate. Ro Khanna (01:08:30): Jason, I'm holding on to you as the democrat in Silicon Valley. I'm a Jason Calacanis (01:08:34): I'm a I've always been a moderate. I like to vote for what I believe is the most qualified person. And this time around, I was what they call in your business a double hater. And let's let's get right into that with the Democratic party. You guys got shellacked. The candidate who you put up didn't go through a primary. The previous candidate seemed to be in cognitive decline, we can all agree, and it feels like a bit of a mess in the party. What is gonna happen to the Democratic party going forward? Is there a voice saying this is the plan, or is it a little Game of Thrones right now? We we're all wondering where are the Democrats? It feels like you went dark. And is that a strategy to just sort of let Trump have his moment and then come back and be adversarial or, you know, state a new platform. What's going on inside the democratic party? Ro Khanna (01:09:26): I think crises are times for reform and renewal, and the reality is that this was a huge blow to the establishment of the party. People wanted a more competitive process. They want new voices. They want a new generation of leadership, and now that's going to emerge. And so you're seeing it happening in California with Dan Lawrie, winning in San Francisco for mayor, Matt Mahan winning in, San Jose. You're seeing new people in congress emerging, new governors emerging. And so I think that there's gonna be a lot of reflection. One of the things I've said is the democrats need to spend as much time understanding why many Americans voted for Donald Trump as we do criticizing Donald Trump. And, I think you're starting to see Jason Calacanis (01:10:14): that happen. What do you think the new platform will be? If you had to think of, you know, things to remove from the platform and things to prioritize in the platform, if you were in charge or Dean Phillips, friend of the pod as well, there's some people who feel, you know, there's some more important issues than the ones that maybe you've been focused on that you, the Democratic party has been focused on for this last election cycle. So maybe give us 2 or 3 ideas of what you would add to the agenda and 2 or 3 things that you might say, hey, this isn't a priority for Americans anymore. Ro Khanna (01:10:45): I think the whole thing has to be about prioritizing the economy, the economic independence of Americans. How are we gonna have economic renewal, economic growth, in a stagnant working and middle class? And then let's argue our different visions. Donald Trump says that the way he's going to turn around Johnstown and Youngstown and Downriver, Michigan is just with, a large tax cuts and deregulation. Our view has got to be that it has to involve technology leaders, business leaders, but also strategic government investments to be able to build new industry there, to be able to credential new folks there, to be able to build a workforce. But we have to offer a compelling economic vision, and then an economic vision so people aren't dependent on, the denials of private health insurance and so that they have childcare. But I think whoever wins the argument that there's gonna lead America in the 21st century on the economy, and on economic independence is gonna win. David Friedberg (01:11:43): Ro, do you you're saying government investment in building new businesses, building new industries is necessary to achieve that vision, and that's a better alternative. What is the historical kind of examples where, policies or government was gonna go start new investments, start fundamentally supporting new businesses being built that's worked successfully and worked better than free markets. Like, the the the the Republican argument is the free market is more efficient. The free market works better. Let capital and capitalists find where the capital is best applied. They'll be more efficiently utilized versus government making the decision about where capital should go. It's typically lower ROI, very often negative ROI, and doesn't actually create sustainable economic growth. Ro Khanna (01:12:27): I think that's with government investment that's market sustainable, but you look at Hamilton, you look at Lincoln, and you look at FDR. That is in my view what built America. Infrastructure. Well, it's infrastructure, but it's also manufacturing. I mean, I have a bill to build new steel plants in Johnstown, in Ohio. Now you need the private sector. You need Cleveland Cliffs. You need a a private steel company. But if we're gonna finance that, the scaling of that, the federal government has to have some role. And what we ended up having in free market, economics is China last week. $1,000,000,000,000,000 dollar trade surplus. Now we are at almost a $1,000,000,000,000 trade deficit. Yep. You know the economics well. So that's financed with a capital account surplus. That means all that money is coming into the Wall Street. Wall Street's doing really well. The finance sector's doing really well, but it's hollowed out our manufacturing base. It's hollowed out our industrial base. That is free market economics gone too far. David Friedberg (01:13:26): That's globalization is what some of the non NeoCon Republicans would say is that global trade versus cut off some of the global trade, create a tariff program with China, and we'll reignite manufacturing. That's kind of a a counter policy argument. But to your point, it's a different point of view that uses different set of data to make the case. Ro Khanna (01:13:44): And I I'd agree with some of the strategic tariffs. I just don't think that's gonna be enough for us to have pill factories here, have, the steel factories, aluminum factories to to revitalize these areas, and to look at what is the investment David Friedberg (01:13:58): we need government programs? I think we Ro Khanna (01:13:59): need government partnering with the private sector. David Friedberg (01:14:02): And on D Reg, so, you know, do you feel and does the party feel that there should be no deregulatory effort in the United States to unleash kind of, you know, economic investment and growth? Or, like, this this whole point Ro Khanna (01:14:16): just to Yeah. David Friedberg (01:14:17): You know, it just feels wrong to me to say, like, we don't want the reg like, shouldn't d reg be a thing that we're always cutting back? Things bureaucracy, bureaucratic red tape that we've created to unleash. I mean, even Gavin Newsom's making this claim now in California with respect to the rebuilding. I I think Jason Calacanis (01:14:26): you need effective government. I think Ro Khanna (01:14:29): I think you need effective government. I think execution matters, and I think there's fair criticisms to say that the execution of the Chips and Science Act, which I helped write or the IRA wasn't enough. I mean, the money didn't get out fast enough. There were the bureaucracy in permitting, was, was slow. And if there are ways to make government procurement more competitive, that is good. I mean, why is it that 5 primes are dominating, the defense procurement system? So Michael Bloomberg had a plan which I think seems pretty reasonable have 15% of Department of Defense spending for startups and innovative, technology as opposed to just going for the 5 primes. That's regulatory reform. But we also have to look at the fundamental why is Intel not succeeding. We had as Pat Gelsinger who was, asked to leave in Intel. And I said is it was it the permitting reform? And he said no. It's that the the the capital expenditures to make Wall Street's numbers, were was very high, and there was no no procurement David Friedberg (01:15:29): app Everything's too expensive in this country. By the way, this goes back to nuclear energy. It's too expensive to build a gigawatt of nuclear power in this country. It's too takes too long. Meanwhile, China can do it for about a tenth of the price, they're scaling up 300 x r rate in terms of new energy production. Tom Emmer (01:15:45): You And Jason Calacanis (01:15:45): they can do it Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:46): in half David Friedberg (01:15:46): the time. Half the time. Yeah. A tenth of the cost, and there's a regulatory path for Gen 4 reactors going up in China versus here. Ro Khanna (01:15:53): I'm for nuclear energy. I'm for smart modular nuclear energy. I'm for looking at how we, build nuclear energy here in the United States in a safe way, but in one that I agree that our part my party has been, opposed to largely. David Friedberg (01:16:07): So so this is really important because I think what happens is the Republicans or the Democrats will come forward with a general policy statement. We need to derag to unleash economic prosperity or derag to unleash nuclear. But the the other party then says, well, we've gotta figure out a way to attack them on that vector. And then they take this, like, diametrically opposed point of view to try and diminish the strength that they're gaining because of their strong policy perspective that may be good for America. And then we end up in this unfortunate circumstance where we can't ever align on the things that really are good for America. That's how I feel as an American looking at how the the parties attack each other. One party says, this is a good thing for America. Why doesn't the other party say, you're absolutely right. We all agree on that. Let's move forward. Yeah. Can you can you Jason Calacanis (01:16:49): give the win on Doge? Like, government efficiency seems like consensus. Ro Khanna (01:16:53): Well, I've gotten to criticize because I put out an innocent tweet and I've said that, if Musk and Ramaswami have a good idea, then, I wanna look at that. And, you know, Musk disrupted the entire Pentagon with SpaceX. I mean, he worked with Ash Carter to do that. The track record's there. The track record's there. So if he's gonna and you have all of the progressives like me saying the defense budget is bloated, 56 per percent of spending. We need to figure out how to have more competition. We need to look at the waste that is there. I mean, spending a $150,000 on soap dispensers. And so now it must just it's really against Boeing. $150,000. 60 minutes. $1400 for breast pumps. I mean, I think the it's outrageous. Yeah. And so now because Musk is saying, let's look at the defense department. You don't wanna do it even though you've been saying to do that for the past 5, 6 years. That's the stuff that drives people crazy. Or I floated, you know, that Bob Iger would be a a good person to run next time David Friedberg (01:17:51): I saw it. Ro Khanna (01:17:52): For mayor of of LA. He's considering it. Well, I mean Did Jason Calacanis (01:17:55): he tell you that when you talked about Ro Khanna (01:17:56): wanna to talk about what he what we've talked about privately. I just think he'd be Jason Calacanis (01:18:00): But you did ask him. Ro Khanna (01:18:01): I did ask him. I I've I and so now I'm getting, attacked for well, am I for an oligarch? That's that's literally my my Twitter stream. David Friedberg (01:18:09): Bob Irish an oligarch? That's that that you look at my Twitter Disney. He wants to I said, I Ro Khanna (01:18:13): want someone who's gonna rebuild this this place. He's it would actually be a public service for him after David Friedberg (01:18:18): f r popcorn and lemonade stands on every corner. Ro Khanna (01:18:21): And Totally. You know, and FDR $18. Was FDR FDR FDR went, oh, look. FDR was one of the wealthiest people in John f Kennedy. So I think there's gotta be a bet there's gotta be common sense. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:18:30): Mhmm. Yeah. Ro Khanna (01:18:31): How do we actually help people? That has to be the the metric and willingness to to to work across the aisle on things. Jason Calacanis (01:18:39): Yeah. It it does seem in the wake of what's happened in Southern California, Pacific Palisades, and all the other regions, that were impacted, that a large number of affluent and and voters and people who are active in politics are now saying it's kind of enough. The progressivism went too far left. We need really qualified people in office. And so what do you think is going to happen in California and what impact do you think these 12,000, 14,000 homes being destroyed? And of course, the 25 people who lost their lives tragically, what impact is that going to have? Do you think that's a turning point in some ways? Ro Khanna (01:19:19): I do. I I mean, first of all, it's just horrific, and I'm sure you know people Jason Calacanis (01:19:24): I have a couple of friends who lost their Who lost their homes. They're alive, and that's what's important, but they did lose everything. Ro Khanna (01:19:29): They lost everything, and I mean, a place that just burned down into it's a it's it's devastating. And I think it's just a culmination in California of something that's been creeping up, which is governance matters, execution matters. Yes. Keeping places safe matters, making sure that we're pragmatic matters, and that's why you saw Dan Lawrie win. That's why you saw Matt Mahan win. That's why you've seen, sort of reasonable people and district attorneys win. I think that's and you're gonna see that in LA. I think you're gonna see that in the governor's race. I I do think California is saying regardless of your ideology on issues, we need to be able to govern well. So you have the economy. Jason Calacanis (01:20:12): I think safety's up there for folks. What else do you think is on that short list of things that the party in California could say to the voters in terms of winning them back and letting them understand you're focused on something other than in their perception, DEI, maybe environmental overreach. I can't believe I'm saying that, but, like, the fact that people don't believe in clearing the forest around homes and they're fighting it on environmental grounds, well, I mean, it doesn't take a rocket science to understand rocket scientists to understand that these wildfires have been occurring for her a long time. We got the sultan of science here who can go into the science of it. And that if you wanna live near a forest in a fire zone, you kinda gotta clean up the detritus on the forest floor. Like, it feels like we you know, the the the leadership in California is kinda pressing company excluded has has kinda lost the script here. Ro Khanna (01:21:09): I think it's reasonable to ask why the brush wasn't cleared outside LA. I I got in trouble for asking that. I said, these are legitimate questions. That's not going after people, and I supported Karen Bass in full disclosure against Rich Caruso. I was proud to do it. But if Caruso asked reasonable questions, the whole point of being in governance is you say, okay. The guy had a good Jason Calacanis (01:21:30): You're disappointed in her performance. The fact that she's out of the country. David Friedberg (01:21:32): Going back in time with the vote, would you have endorsed Caruso knowing what you know now? Ro Khanna (01:21:37): I I don't know if I would have endorsed him, but I I I I certainly think it's fair to say that people are disappointed in what's what's happened to LA. And I I I I didn't know someone like Iger or others. I think there's I certainly think there needs to be a a new mayor. David Friedberg (01:21:50): Do you think there was any reason for her to be in Ghana? Ro Khanna (01:21:53): But she said she says that she went on David Friedberg (01:21:56): the president. Of the president. Ro Khanna (01:21:58): The inauguration. I I Like, David Friedberg (01:22:00): she was in a palace having cocktails. Ro Khanna (01:22:02): Now whether if if there were actual warnings before, I think she would probably say she David Friedberg (01:22:06): should have said be going to Ghana as the mayor of the city that has no economic on vacation, I suppose. Ro Khanna (01:22:11): No. Well, that no. Look. That's a common thing where the president of both parties ask people, mayors, governors, I haven't been asked as a congressman yet, to to represent them at a at a forward inauguration. No. Is there I, Yeah. That's a common thing. And I don't if there weren't the warnings, I don't think that's a big big issue. Right now she's going to Paris because, you know, the, LA is hosting the Olympics. The question is though your first priority and if there were warnings, if she should explain why why why why she didn't go. And I I like her. I think she's a good person, but the question is, what is it gonna take going forward? But the big point about one of the points about what what we need to do differently other than the economics is we've gotta also go around the country and say my party is not going to look down on people who we have different, cultural or social viewpoints with. Yeah. I think there was this sense of condescension and that if you disagree with someone, somehow our party is morally superior, and that's gotta stop. David Friedberg (01:23:08): And this whole thing about if we disagree, the policy generally is wrong, which is, I think, this distinct distinguishing the policy from the party. Do you think California has a chance of electing a Republican governor from 26? Do you think that that chance is now greater than 50% after the wildfire? Ro Khanna (01:23:30): I still think, and I will support most likely the democrat. I mean, whoever the good a good democrat is, there are a lot of good democrats, that can run. But, you know, I mean, Arnold Schwarzenegger was a republican, and can a republican who is a pro choice and take some of the social issues off the table be competitive? Yeah. I think the Democratic party would be naive, to take that for granted, and we need to have, thoughtful, strong people on our side run, and run understanding people care about public safety. They want effective government. They want, reform. I mean, people like Matt Mahan, who now have had a couple years and have been effective, are are the type of Democrats I think that can win statewide. Jason Calacanis (01:24:12): What are your thoughts on, TikTok, going dark in the last 24 hours here? Ro Khanna (01:24:18): It's terrible. I've been I've been vocal. We had 1,300,000 people sign a petition. We've never had that in orders of magnitude saying keep, TikTok, Jason Calacanis (01:24:28): the right the product or they make a living on it? Ro Khanna (01:24:30): It's yeah. It's first of all, it's the the stories about people who make a living. I there was one person, a content creator. Her husband cheated on her abusive marriage. She leaves. She's got 4 kids, 2 toddlers, and 2 people around 2 kids around 5, and she's broke. She's in a hotel. She's staying in her best friend's, living room for 4 months, and then she starts telling her story, and now she's making 60, $70,000 as a content creator. I could tell you 50 stories like this, so people are actually relying on this for their livelihood. Some people are making it making using it to make rent. And then you have the issue of free speech and, just being able to express it. Now people say, what about China? Well, why don't you pass a broad, broader law that says any interference by a foreign government in algorithms is gonna be illegal and criminal. Jason Calacanis (01:25:21): Well, India banned these apps. Ro Khanna (01:25:23): Yes. Jason Calacanis (01:25:23): And, this We're Ro Khanna (01:25:24): not India. Jason Calacanis (01:25:25): They're pretty savvy though. I mean, these things are an attack vector. You can remotely control these phones. They were caught spying on journalists, and, they could shape public policy. So, and they've had years to divest. Seems to me that the Chinese government sees this as a strategic military asset. Do you disagree with that? Ro Khanna (01:25:45): I do. I one, I think the United States has a much, much more robust tradition of free speech than in Obviously. Than in India. And and so I think our considerations are are different. I also think we have far more capability, in making sure that we protect our data, and protect, any foreign interference and algorithms. Now president Trump has floated this idea that, you have 50% US ownership. My understanding is 60% of the investors already Yep. Are are US investors. I will work with him and Mike Waltz. I know very well. We were co chairs of the India caucus together in Congress. I will work with him in a bipartisan way to figure out how do we have this app operational. Jason Calacanis (01:26:24): If the Chinese government spies on their own people, why wouldn't they spy on their adversary, the American people? Ro Khanna (01:26:30): Well, certainly they would. But the question is are they, can we protect the American people from that happening on this app? We can, as long as we have 2 clear laws. 1 that the data stays here. By the way, a lot of the data that's going to the China Communist Party is through data brokers. There's no law against that. So pass a law that all data of Americans, if you're dosed to in the hand David Friedberg (01:26:52): Which, by the way, there's US companies that are selling that data. There's US companies that are buying that data. Any third party can access that data if they wanna buy it in one of the markets. That stuff exists. It's existed for a very long time. It's a yeah. Ro Khanna (01:27:03): And and the irony of it is I'm going back to the trade deficit. China's got a the same week China announces $1,000,000,000,000 trade surplus. They're building more drones than us, more ships than us, more steel than us. We're talking about banning this TikTok app. More electricity. You know what I mean? What about Jason Calacanis (01:27:19): the concept of reciprocity? Would you be, in favor of requiring that we have our social networks in China if they wanna have theirs here? Ro Khanna (01:27:29): I would be in favor of us pushing for our social media networks to be there just because of free speech, but I would not allow the Chinese Communist Party to be controlling any social media app or having any influence whether it's on TikTok or whether it's on, any other app. I don't wanna name another app because I don't wanna malign other apps, incorrectly. But they pass a law that says it's a criminal offense If an executive in this country is found collaborating or overseeing any app that has any influence in the algorithms by the Chinese Communist Party or if our data goes to the in the hands of the Chinese Communist Party. You could you could have a law. We're still keeping That's right. TikTok operational. David Friedberg (01:28:09): Yeah. You litigate the outcome. You don't litigate the method. Jason Calacanis (01:28:12): I I don't trust China as much as you gentlemen do. Let's talk about David Friedberg (01:28:15): but, Jason, it's not about trusting China, and you keep trying to characterize it as, like, people being pro China if they're pro free speech or they're pro giving people It's the only platform you can have your speech. You're making you continue to make assumptions about security when there are security issues with a lot of apps and security issues with a lot of phones. Jason Calacanis (01:28:30): They don't have the same scale as TikTok. David Friedberg (01:28:32): This is great. The scale of TikTok is extraordinary. Guys, I'll Ro Khanna (01:28:34): tell you where we got the politics from. Right? I mean, so Donald Trump comes in there and he says, you know what? The Chinese took your jobs. They took your steel jobs, they took your auto jobs, and we're gonna have tariffs. And by the way, this TikTok thing, pretty popular app for young people, we're gonna keep it. What do what what do we do? We do the exact opposite. We have running ads. We don't want tariffs. So we're telling all these folks in the Midwest that we're opposed to the policies that could save some of their jobs, and then we're telling all these young people that we wanna ban TikTok. Jason Calacanis (01:29:07): And in fairness, David Friedberg (01:29:08): they didn't take Jason Calacanis (01:29:09): the jobs. We gave them to Ro Khanna (01:29:11): them. At some point China. I think we've got it one of the things the Democrats need to do is stop listening to the foreign policy blob in the Beltway exec you know, pundits who've got fancy titles and fancy think tanks. And every time we get these letters, 500 groups, 200 groups, I said, who are these groups? These are 200 groups with a 130 people. It's like every person has 3 groups. David Friedberg (01:29:33): So true. Ro Khanna (01:29:33): And we're listening to them I just opposed to David Friedberg (01:29:35): I just think to I just Jason Calacanis (01:29:36): popped up 5 groups while we're speaking here. Ro Khanna (01:29:38): You know? And I I and I think part of what Trump was doing. I mean, I I and I obviously totally opposed him. I voted for his impeachment twice, but it was sort of, like in the in our world, AB testing or fast, iterations. He put out ideas. He get feedback. He iterates it. He may not call it that, but he's just kinda gauging where people are. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:29:56): About one of Jason Calacanis (01:29:57): those ideas. Americans want the border secure. There's no doubt about that. The statistics just show it. 80% of Americans want it kind of shut down and be orderly and legal, maybe even more. But this idea that we're gonna drag 15,000,000 people out of the country. David Friedberg (01:30:13): Steve Bannon. Because he continues to. Jason Calacanis (01:30:15): No, I'm quoting Steve Bannon and, Stephen Miller who work, one of them worked in the first administration and architected his first win, and the other one is the most powerful person inside the administration this time. So I'm just quoting people. They say day 1, 15,000,000 are going. So do you think that's actually gonna happen, and do you think it should happen? Ro Khanna (01:30:35): It shouldn't happen. Whether it's actually going to happen or not, I don't know is the answer. Whether they're gonna try. David Friedberg (01:30:42): What do you think should happen? Ro Khanna (01:30:43): I think you should have people who are convicted. First of all, we need a secure border. We need to encourage people to come here through the legal process like my parents did or like so David Friedberg (01:30:55): many encourage? Ro Khanna (01:30:56): Do you say encourage or require? Require. But but but to do that, we've gotta have reform to make that more possible because right now that's a a a a very hard thing to do, and it wasn't as hard by the way when my father came in the 19 sixties, studied engineering, had a green card within a month Chamath Palihapitiya (01:31:14): of Ro Khanna (01:31:14): of graduating. So how do we do that? But, of course, require people to come through the legal process, and secure the border. I don't deny that there's been a problem on the border. But and then for those who are, criminals here who are convicted convicted of crimes, fine. Deport deport Okay. Jason Calacanis (01:31:32): Do you all agree on that? Those all seem logical and and obvious. Ro Khanna (01:31:35): But but in terms of so let me tell you someone in my district without telling her name. I mean, you you tell me what what should happen with this person. She's a she's been in the country. She's undocumented. She came to to to see me with a a group of people. She's a dental hygienist. Her daughter is going to med school. David Friedberg (01:31:53): She's undocumented. She's undocumented. Do you consider yourself to be her representative? She's not a citizen of the United States. She doesn't have a legal right to vote. Are you representing that undocumented non American person? Ro Khanna (01:32:04): I am supposed to represent everyone in the district. David Friedberg (01:32:06): That lives there regardless of their citizenry. Ro Khanna (01:32:09): I I my my Citizenship. I don't we don't ask in terms of their citizenship in terms of just being a representative of the area. If everyone no. I won't. But as a David Friedberg (01:32:18): congress member, you believe that you should represent non Americans that happened to be domiciled in your region, in your district. Ro Khanna (01:32:25): I don't think I don't think that I need to represent their political views. But if they're being abused in terms of the process in some way and they came to us within the law, we would figure out how they got due process. Jason Calacanis (01:32:39): So you would have empathy and sympathy for the person living in your district even if they weren't legal is what you're saying, I think. It's quite reasonable if I may interpret. Yeah. Ro Khanna (01:32:47): I mean, that's that's that's a more eloquent way of putting it. But let me just tell you about this this person. So she's she her daughter is in, med school in in Southern California. She drives down once a month and drives back because she can't afford a hotel down there. And the reason she can't afford a hotel is she's being underpaid as a dental hygienist for 20 years. Now do you really think we need to deport her? And what is that gonna do to her daughter? Or do can we find a path David Friedberg (01:33:12): Sounds like a great So Jason Calacanis (01:33:13): so the potential American David Friedberg (01:33:15): to me. Will be the the, the alternative point of view someone would say, I'll I'll play the the the devil's advocate here. They would say, but there is another American who is qualified to be a dental hygienist, who cannot get a job, who would be getting paid more because they are a citizen and they are legal and documented. This person is undercharging their employer, and they are taking a job away from America. And that's what the counterargument would be from some people. Ro Khanna (01:33:39): So there are 2 things. 1, I agree that if there's someone who is in a position that is undocumented or even on an h one b and they are being underpaid. That's wrong. That's why we need reform so that people are being paid, appropriately and aren't being employers aren't abusing the process to drive down market wages. But the immigrant as a worker, yes, you're increasing the labor supply and the if you increase supply that drives down price or wages, but you're also increasing demand because they're spending a lot of money on things. David Friedberg (01:34:17): And most I've always viewed this to be more of a demand part of the equation for growing the US population so you can actually increase the economic growth. Jason Calacanis (01:34:23): So let's put a number on this. Yeah. You know, so clearly, you don't believe these people should be dragged out of the country. Correct. I think we're in agreement on that. Some people are not. Maga 1.0 Tom Emmer (01:34:34): on it. Do you Jason Calacanis (01:34:35): believe they should be dragged out? David Friedberg (01:34:36): It's a long Ro Khanna (01:34:36): let's I don't wanna put you on this fire. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:34:38): No. No. David Friedberg (01:34:38): It's it's not that simple. And I'm really hungover today, so I'm not gonna be super articulate about it. What Jason Calacanis (01:34:44): about that dental hygienist? She's been here for 20 years. Would you give her amnesty? I would. Seems like a great American. Working hard, David Friedberg (01:34:53): has a daughter. Obviously, being empathetic, I think, for me would always be a priority. That person should not lose their job, lose their life. That's a very hard circumstance. At the same time, there are a lot of Americans who feel they are getting underpaid, that they don't have jobs, and there's empathy that I think is part of the alternative side of that equation. Jason Calacanis (01:35:09): So I don't know. I would you know what? Let me let me ask this question. Whenever we talk about immigration, we never have a number put on it. David Friedberg (01:35:17): I see. Jason Calacanis (01:35:18): And we never have a point. We don't have a point based system here. So it devolves into this discussion we're having right here, which is, oh, they they stole our jobs and wages are down in the face of the lowest unemployment of our lifetime, 4% and 7, 8,000,000 jobs out there. There's 2 jobs for every person who's unemployed if you do that basic math. Now, of course, there's some disparity in people having the skills to take certain jobs and and geography. Putting all that aside, we have 340,000,000 Americans. Would a would an easy situation here be to say we will import people based on the need in the country? So if we don't have enough people working in healthcare, we're gonna open up, and if unemployment's under 10%, we'll have 3,000,000 people come in a year. We'll have 2,000,000 people come in a year and just put a number on it and then have Americans and our representatives debate that number. Why don't you guys do this? Ro Khanna (01:36:08): Well, I'd say 2 years. I think my view of why we have lost jobs and stagnation has been the offshoring of so much of our industry and the hollowing out of towns and communities where we just watched as wealth piled up in districts like ours. Not because we people in our district stole the wealth from Youngstown or downriver. It's just that the wealth was piling up, industry was being off shore, and there was kind of indifference towards it. And if we want real solutions, we need to have economic revitalization instead of blaming the dental hygienist in my district. Like, that's not why, you know, Johnstown or Warren, Ohio are suffering. The the the broader point though is that we have a number on, green cards and, legal immigrants around 1,400,000 a year. And then we should debate how do we, where which categories do you wanna increase it? Why? And how do you get people out of the status where they're being underpaid? I do think that's what's hurting is this is whether you're on an h one and you're there for years and you're being underpaid, or whether you're undocumented and being underpaid, that's hurts the American worker far more than when That's Jason Calacanis (01:37:14): such an important point. People don't understand this about the h one b is is they are transferable, but you have 30 days, which makes essentially, as it was explained to me when I was in the IT business, these are indentured servants and they don't have choice and they have this, you know, threat that they're constantly under. If you don't do what we say as an employer and you don't accept this salary, you're gonna be out of the country. Exactly. And you're gonna have to take your family with you. Would an easier solution to be to just charge 10% of the salary into a pool as a tax so people don't abuse it? David Friedberg (01:37:43): The salaries go up, have Jason Calacanis (01:37:44): a minimum salary, and give them maybe a year to find another job. David Friedberg (01:37:49): What do you think of that? Ro Khanna (01:37:50): I think that type of a solution is reasonable and have them be paid well. I mean, this idea that they're being abused floor. You know, put a floor or have it be the prioritized based on the the highest wages because that's reflective of, talent coming in. But, you know, you don't want a situation like now where you're on a h one for 3 years then you get it extended, because you apply for a green card to 6 years. And then while your green card application is in process, it keeps getting extended. So these folks are here 10, 12 years Yeah. And and and and the abuse of it. And and and my view is, you know, I think the American people are pretty decent and fair. I grew up in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. It was 95, 98% white. It was a few Indian American families, and I grew up with a belief that you could do anything in America. David Friedberg (01:38:35): And look Ro Khanna (01:38:36): at you. And and, you know, the country trusted me to represent a district with $12,000,000,000,000 of value of the most economically prosperous place perhaps in the history of humanity, perhaps in the world. Right? Right? And I I I just think that that is America. And people are upset at the extremes. They're upset at the abuses. They're upset that there wasn't a process at the border. But deep down, this country has always been one that embraces, immigration and most almost most immigrants tend to be very patriotic. Jason Calacanis (01:39:08): So when you hear Stephen Miller say, America is for Americans and American only, you think that flies in the face of the spirit of this country? Ro Khanna (01:39:16): I'd say, what does he mean by Americans? I you know what I wanna do? I'd I'd love to have lunch with them, actually. Me too. You know, maybe have them on all in. Be great. Yeah. And You David Friedberg (01:39:24): wanna join for that if we Ro Khanna (01:39:26): I'd I'd love to. And, you know, we should all instead of just reading every tweet. Right. You know, read Lincoln's David Friedberg (01:39:30): because I heard he's a guy that if you sit down with him and have a long form conversation, you get a lot more than what the the short form media, bites have been about him. So I'd actually be Jason Calacanis (01:39:40): really Yeah. No. I would love to have him on because I watched his entire speech, and the way he speaks seems incredibly xenophobic and a bit racist to me. Ro Khanna (01:39:46): So what I would I would argue what I would ask him about is is is without being too, pedantic about history as Lincoln has the speech in 1858, on Independence Day. And the challenge for Lincoln is to say, how is a German American or French American American? Because back then, to be American, you literally had to trace one great grandparent who fought the revolutionary war. How could you be American if no one in your family fought the revolutionary war? And Lincoln has this brilliant formulation that he says, your flesh of the flesh, blood of the blood, of the founders if you believe in the constitution, if you believe in the declaration of You're independence. And so I'd say to Steven, do you do you still believe that? Jason Calacanis (01:40:26): What how David Friedberg (01:40:26): are you defining It's okay if you don't too. Right? Jason Calacanis (01:40:28): I mean, we can have that discussion in America if we're pulling the ladder up now, and we're not a land of immigrants. David Friedberg (01:40:32): But I agree with you. I'm an immigrant. I think the immigrants are the most patriotic. Jason Calacanis (01:40:36): That's why I believe in it. It's because David Friedberg (01:40:37): of you, Freeborn. Everything with well, I mean, you should because you're doing great things, and look what you're gonna do from potatoes. From South Africa. South Africa when I was 6 years old, and I'm hanging out in Washington, DC with a congressman. And how Jason Calacanis (01:40:48): many jobs have you created? David Friedberg (01:40:50): President and the vice president. I get to meet all these people and hang out with them. It's And Jason Calacanis (01:40:53): you've created thousands of jobs, and you're gonna create billions of extra calories with these amazing Ohana strawberries. Ohana strawberries. Ohana strawberries. David Friedberg (01:41:00): Ohana strawberries. Ro Khanna (01:41:01): But I appreciate Eric Swalwell (01:41:02): it. Ohana. David Friedberg (01:41:03): Because I think I think my company might actually be in your district. You cover Santa Cruz County? Ro Khanna (01:41:06): No. That's Jimmy Panetta. David Friedberg (01:41:07): I see. Okay. Alright. Jason Calacanis (01:41:08): No. No favor. Let David Friedberg (01:41:09): me ask Jason Calacanis (01:41:09): you a question. David Friedberg (01:41:10): Do you think the United States should spend $200,000,000,000 to acquire Greenland from Denmark? Denmark has a $150,000,000,000, debt. Ro Khanna (01:41:19): Yeah. They could build David Friedberg (01:41:20): a public pension plan. They could Ro Khanna (01:41:22): Here's what what are we trying to solve? First of all, I'm a a person that believes that we need to respect the self determination of other countries. That's what makes us different than Britain, that makes us different than Rome, America. You know, when my Even though we intervene in David Friedberg (01:41:36): foreign elections and use military force to overturn foreign governments? Ro Khanna (01:41:40): Well, those nobody's perfect. There you go. David Friedberg (01:41:42): There you go. Ro Khanna (01:41:43): I gotta get this guy on the he he's got my tongue. David Friedberg (01:41:45): He's got his back. But, you know, need a hyped in or a campaign manager, I can't go. Let's go. When you do your love, Rob, when when you do your run for governor Yeah. Ro Khanna (01:41:53): Exactly. With your guy. David Friedberg (01:41:54): By the way, Jason Calacanis (01:41:54): the show has been brought to you, but not only by Roe, but also Roman. Go into get Roman, Roe. We gotta wrap up. You gotta go. No. No. Hold on. David Friedberg (01:42:01): I wanna go to Greenland. Yeah. Greenland. Ro Khanna (01:42:02): Well, look. Yes. So But but but but the question is why what interest does Greenland have? They have critical minerals. They have, a lot of, important resources. And, basically, they wanna partner economically with us. They're letting us invest. They're letting us develop it. So what what what do we gain? David Friedberg (01:42:21): So you're saying we could achieve our objectives without without it becoming a territory? What about Puerto Rico? 50 first thing? Ro Khanna (01:42:26): Do you really want here's here's my cautionary tale. I think this could be the this positive argument. Every time Bernie Sanders ran, you know what he talked about? The politics of Denmark. You really want Greenland in our state? David Friedberg (01:42:39): We're gonna we're gonna get to Denmark. They call it getting to Denmark. Ro Khanna (01:42:42): Oh, Greenland is gonna that's gonna that those 2 senators are gonna be David Friedberg (01:42:46): downtown and senators. If you Jason Calacanis (01:42:47): watch We're gonna have 2 years of paternity. David Friedberg (01:42:48): Interviews that have come out on Twitter from the people that live in Greenland. They're sick of the socialist, you know, kind of overseers. I think they do wanna have a different way of governing. Jason Calacanis (01:42:56): I don't know, man. I'm gonna have more kids if I get Ro Khanna (01:42:58): 2 years of paternity. David Friedberg (01:42:59): It sounds pretty amazing. Yeah. But it is I mean, look, I I don't think that you're necessarily getting that, but there's What about Puerto Rico? It's an important question is like, does, does the United States need territorial dominion to achieve its strategic objectives? I'm open. I'm open minded. What about Puerto Rico? Ro Khanna (01:43:17): Well, I there are 2. Like, look, every democrat is like, oh, we want Puerto Rico. Why? Because you're gonna get 2 democratic senators and congresspeople. But my view is it should be a Puerto Rico self, a referendum Jason Calacanis (01:43:26): for the 90 percent wanna Ro Khanna (01:43:28): do it, you'd be down? Yes. If they wanna join the United States, because that's a different thing. There there we cut you know, we basically took that as a territory. Now let's see what they wanna do. Jason Calacanis (01:43:37): I'm all for it. Let's go straight to 60 states. David Friedberg (01:43:38): Are you, are you running for governor in California? Ro Khanna (01:43:40): No. Are you? Jason Calacanis (01:43:42): Why not? You've done such a great job. I'm sorry about that, Jason. But, David Friedberg (01:43:46): no. Not you, bro. Ro Khanna (01:43:47): I I I I think Talk to your family. I I think there's a I I love being in congress. I love representing Silicon Valley, and I have been focused on how do we get, innovation, technology, partnering with, communities to to have economic rebalance Jason Calacanis (01:44:01): If you were asked, would David Friedberg (01:44:02): you consider? Didn't I see a rumor this week that someone said something that you were Ro Khanna (01:44:05): am I wrong? I think someone may have floated a rumor. I'm trying to get David Friedberg (01:44:08): out of here. Jason Calacanis (01:44:09): Asked by your party and the citizens of California, would you consider? Would you consider it? Ro Khanna (01:44:13): Is that just a consider? I'd consider anything. Okay, Brent. You know? There you go. Alright. He'd consider it. David Friedberg (01:44:18): You're gonna be gonna Ro Khanna (01:44:18): be a Jason Calacanis (01:44:19): manager might might I Ro Khanna (01:44:20): I need that. I mean, he's good. David Friedberg (01:44:22): Well, he's got he's got his moment. I'll take it. I'll take it. He's a wrap. That's a wrap Jason Calacanis (01:44:28): from the 47th, inauguration of the United States, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye.