伊丽莎白·霍姆斯的丈夫比利·埃文斯：审判、监狱与内森·菲尔德的纪录片

(00:00:00) Billy Evans, who is Elizabeth Holmes' partner, the subject of the forthcoming documentary, You Can See Everything, has had an unconventional love story with her fiance, Billy Evans. The couple first connected as federal authorities were investigating Holmes for fraud and conspiracy, connected to her failed blood testing startup, Theranos. A new documentary is offering an unprecedented look into the life of Elizabeth Holmes, the tech CEO turned convicted felon, at the center of a massive multi-year fraud. Elizabeth Holmes was sentenced today to 11 and a quarter years in prison, four counts of criminal fraud, the disgraced tycoon, and her fiance, Billy Evans. Please welcome Billy Evans. Welcome. (00:00:54) What's up? Hi, everyone. Grab a seat. Have you ever done a live interview like this? Dude, I've never done an interview. You've never done an interview. Thank you guys all for being the guinea pigs here. I appreciate it. And apologies. You're Elizabeth Holmes' husband? That's typically not how I love to be introduced. Yeah, my name is Billy Evans. And yes, Elizabeth Holmes is my wife and best friend and partner. You and I met at a party. Yeah. Yeah. A year and a half ago, I think. Yeah, around F1, I think. Yeah, that's right. And we started talking, and that kind of got to us kind of chatting about Elizabeth and the case and the history. Yeah, I think I came up to you and I said, David, my name's Billy Evans. (00:01:42) You guys talk about my wife a lot on your podcast. And you've got a lot of the story pretty fundamentally wrong. So if you're ever interested in learning some more details, I'm happy to read you in. I'd had a couple drinks. I'm like, sure. He was great. He was like really great. I'll hear your side of the story. Yeah. And one thing led to another. We talked on the phone, and I ended up getting on a plane to Texas. And I went and visited Elizabeth in prison. Yeah. I spent the day with her and you. Yeah. And her parents and the kids going quite deep into the whole thing. And there was a lot more to this story than what I think had been portrayed. And I was aware of the documentary. I had heard in Hollywood (00:02:28) that this documentary was happening. And I had heard that it had been. But it was a pretty well-kept secret. Yeah. But I know people. Yeah. Well, I don't doubt it. Look at the crowd. Yeah. Well, so the secret got out. I want to get to that. We're not going to litigate the case today, the Theranos case. That's Elizabeth's story to tell when the time is right. And she was under a gag order until last April. Yeah. So from the time that the DOJ began their investigation, Elizabeth was under a gag order through the trial and through the appeals process which ended last April, I believe. Yeah. So one thing for people to know about her, which might shock you, is that Elizabeth follows rules maniacally, like to a T. So when the judge said that we are going (00:03:13) to litigate this court in the courtroom and not in the media, she held true to that. But she never spoke to the media. No. For the entirety of the process, she remained silent. A lot of articles being written. Yeah, movies being made and podcasts. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, there's a lot to the story which we're not going to talk about today, the trial and the case. But I'm curious to hear a little bit about the experience. Okay, so maybe we can go back. How did you and Elizabeth first meet? Yeah. Elizabeth and I met at a Fleet Week party in San Francisco on the roof of some venture capitalist. He was trying to hire me and date her. I was going to be there for like maybe five minutes. I had a hundred people coming over to a house (00:03:58) I lived in with four other guys and we were going to throw a big Fleet Week party. And he called me when I went out to go grab ice and he said, Billy, you know, are you coming by our event today? I said, of course. I'd totally forgotten. So I drove over to his place. I parked my car in the red. I went up the elevator and a few minutes later, he introduced me to Elizabeth. And that killed my whole afternoon. I mean, the next, I don't know, two and a half, three hours, her and I just spoke and we started a conversation that really has never ended. And I don't know if I can say I fell in love with her in that moment, but she was just incredible. Her ability to listen and really care about everything that you're saying, she made you feel so seen. She was infinitely curious about the smallest things (00:04:43) that nobody else really cared about who were too, you know, cool to pretend like it mattered. And as the planes flew overhead, she was just amazed by them with this like childlike wonder. And when I first met her, I didn't know she was Elizabeth Holmes. She was just Elizabeth. She was wearing a big floppy hat and dark sunglasses and had a Band-Aid on her face because her puppy husky had just scratched her. And some way through the middle of the conversation, it turned to where we worked, like physically. And I told her that I worked on Page Mill Road. She said, oh, no way, where? I said, 1891. And she said, you know, I'm 1790 or something. She was two doors down. And then that's when I really put it together. And what year was this and what was the state of the Theranos story at that point? Yeah. So this was October 7th of 2017 (00:05:30) that we first met. It was peak, like bad. So this was after the DOJ, the case. It was before she was indicted. Before she was indicted. Yeah. It was the Carrie U article machine had started. Yeah, like 100 of them. Those were already out there. They had been out there. So she had this reputation. Like horrible reputation. Fraudster, all this sort of stuff. Yes. And so you're saying that when you first met her, it was her, who she is, that you kind of engaged with, not the story of Elizabeth Holmes. And then you found out it was her. Yeah, I mean, it's like the, you know, 30 people that I've spoken to while I've been here where I know nothing about their story. Right. I'm just seeing the person in front of me. So then when you found out who she really was. Yeah. Like you're not just shut down and say, what am I doing? Talking to this person. It was pretty hard to grok. I mean, it was like a hard thing to come to terms with (00:06:15) because you get to know this person separate and apart of how you're supposed to feel about them. And then you invariably go back to this idea of like, this is who I've been told this person is. And those two things were so radically different from one another. Yeah, it was really challenging. And then. But we didn't like just start dating. You know, like I met her and then there was, you know, I was looking at renting her building because we were right next door and our business was kind of doing this and hers was doing this at that time. So we were looking at renting the Theranos HQ and that was kind of the context under which she gave me her business card and, you know, she crossed out her cell phone number on it and wrote personal cells like, huh, maybe this just isn't business. And that's how we originally connected. And then did you guys start hanging out? Yeah. (00:07:00) So when I first met her, she told me that she had this husky and I told her I had a dog. I didn't really have a dog. It was my roommate's dog but he was like mine. And the first times that we hung out we'd just go on walks. And I was really curious about the circumstance like probably many of you are. There was some infamy at the time. You're curious to understand what's going on. I think I was most curious to understand the difference between the person that I experienced and the person that I was told existed. And they were so different. And I was really curious. And I was interested in her and she made me feel good because she listened so intently. But basically we were friends for six months. We'd go on walks with her dog (00:07:46) and my like rented dog that was my roommate's. And then there was a romantic turn. Yeah. And it moved super quickly. Like it went from us being friends. I was traveling a lot at the time. So I was working for a company that built LiDAR and we were selling to car companies around the world. So that year I spent maybe 12 trips to Germany. What was your role? I was just solving the most important problems that the CEO didn't want to solve. Kind of like a startup type? Special projects. Special projects. So everything from kind of sales to big automotive manufacturers to hiring executive team members to raising capital at times. Just really anything that needed to get done. You know, a startup. There's a lot of problems that need to be solved and I was just really willing to say yes. So you guys kind of this becomes more serious, (00:08:31) becomes emotional and she's going through this court case. The indictment started. Yeah, I think like three weeks after we started dating she got indicted. I mean it's like one hell of an experience to fall in love with somebody so quickly and then immediately come to terms with like I didn't even know what an indictment was. Okay, like I was really unfamiliar with the entirety of this process. She went through a period of crisis in her life during this kind of courtship period. She is like cool as a cucumber. So while this was happening all the articles are coming out before the indictment she was just she didn't feel super phased or freaked out about it. No, I mean there's certainly things to be freaked out about but you have to put yourself in her mindset which you know I don't want to speak for her but I can share with you kind of the perspective that I saw which is this is somebody (00:09:17) that fundamentally believes in their innocence and was being told at the time prior to the indictment like you're never going to get indicted. You did nothing wrong. The company did nothing wrong and I know that's hard for you guys to comprehend and believe but yes this is what was kind of going on behind the scenes. So I think at each of these chapters in which you know like shitty thing after shitty thing happened we were kind of perpetually surprised. It wasn't supposed to go this way. Yeah, yeah. I think that's a good way of describing it. And then she gets indicted. Yeah. How was that? I mean that's the first night I met her parents like it's tough way to meet your in-laws. How was she? (00:10:03) It was obviously so it was mounting there was a lot of articles and press about this but Yeah, kind of infinite press but she wouldn't read it. You know we like I've seen I don't know maybe an episode and a half of the dropout for a reason maybe some of you guys will understand in the future You didn't watch this? No, but I like you know I skim bad blood because like my lawyers told me to for other reasons but otherwise I really didn't consume any media on the subject And then she gets indicted and how was this for you guys and your relationship at this point? I mean now It was three weeks into a relationship with somebody but we were so close already because we'd spent six months like really being friends It was intense man I mean I think part of it (00:10:49) is if I knew what I know now like how how painful the process was I probably would have responded differently at the time but I was in new territory I mean let's see this was 2018 I don't know I was like 26 years old 27 years old Yeah And then the trial began Well it took a while for the trial Right So we had like a long period of time in which there was this impending thing and there was an enormous amount of time spent with lawyers and her working like late into the night to go through hundreds of thousands of records and try and piece together a story that she didn't (00:11:35) fully understand that was being told about her So it was a really intense time but there's also some really beautiful moments in there too like you know one thing that nobody knows but I guess you guys are the first to know is Elizabeth and I spent eight months traveling the country in an off-road RV we had our dog Balto he's a husky and if you've never seen a husky like in the wild it is a sight to be seen because that dog lived and we just went to trailer parks and we went to National Forest where you're allowed to stay and park your car for 14 days without moving it and we would just hike all day and work at night sit around the fire and just be together What about your job? Well at that time I had already left the business and I was starting something else so I was kind of working for myself (00:12:21) You guys were just let's go be free get away from all this? I think a part of it was just the enormous attention by the media when we were in San Francisco I've got an entire collection on my phone of here's how the situation works we'd go into a restaurant and within 30 seconds six people would pull out their phones and some of them were sneaky and others were pretending like they were taking a photo of their friend but it was obvious it was so uncomfortable we couldn't go anywhere without immediately being recognized immediately being judged we'd go to a restaurant for a friend's dinner celebrating their anniversary or their engagement and then we'd have articles written about how Elizabeth Holmes is gallivanting (00:13:06) around San Francisco and it's hard to know how to act when every action that you take and every decision that you make and every place that you go is being judged through the eyes of a thousand angry journalists There was this period of time when everyone talked about Elizabeth Holmes being manipulative in wearing the turtleneck and talking with a deep voice and having this kind of character that she played where the idea was if she's playing a character for everyone else around here clearly she's playing a character all the time and that might be the origin of the fraud of the manipulation I think there's a lot of things that have been said about that and some of them I think if you just look back with as much clarity as you can muster (00:13:51) and try and disassociate Elizabeth Holmes from the situation as much as possible if you just say it some of it's pretty crazy that she would manipulate people with her big blue eyes and that her deep voice would immediately have people give her $100 million I mean it's incredibly sexist one but yeah I've read a lot of this stuff No you'd never say that about a man Liz would have a meeting with somebody I'll not insert name here but think one of the biggest family offices on earth it would be a 45 minute meeting they'd commit $100 million by the end of the meeting and any guy that did that people would say wow what an incredible ability to tell a story what an incredible (00:14:37) ability to have deep conviction in the thing that you believe in that this person wants to support your mission and your vision and when it's Liz it's wow she fleeced that person 45 minutes okay but then there's these stories about things that were misrepresented the machine does this and then it doesn't do that and again I don't want to litigate the case but was there any experience you had where Elizabeth stretched the truth where she was kind of pushing the boundaries where the imagination in her mind maybe became the reality that's a good question where the imagination became the reality Liz is somebody who like so deeply (00:15:23) believes and until you've met somebody like her it's really hard to understand what that's like but I think a lot of the things that are kind of most litigated in the press at least and most described this is not like the machinations of a woman of a single person this was hundreds of employees working tirelessly for 16 years to solve a really difficult problem so you know one of the things that I think has been largely described as a fraudulent behavior was missing revenue numbers right she missed her revenue numbers she should have known that that was going to come and if you look at like where that comes from just you know brief bit of the case they had contractual obligations with Walgreens to pay them that amount (00:16:08) of money and then when bad press came out then they defaulted on those obligations and then the business didn't fulfill those revenue obligations so then they missed it by a large number but it wasn't like a made up number this was a number that was obligated to be paid by the company that they had a contract number of Walgreens stores it's like 800 Walgreens stores a million dollar store Walgreens had done this contract to do that and Walgreens stopped doing that after the Carrie U article came out that's right you guys then start going through this process of preparing for the trial is that when you got pregnant well she did I mean this is like I don't know the right term you know it's always like you guys got pregnant I'm like I didn't really do that I'm always about five words away from being cancelled so I'm gonna watch myself you're pre-cancelled actually (00:16:54) yeah I think my X-Files says already cancelled the question was what was it like preparing when did Elizabeth get pregnant well our son our son was born on July 10th of 2020 and when did the case the trial start it was supposed to start well before but this was COVID right it was a really weird weird experience because we were all mass going to the courtroom there's all these discussions about whether or not you settled down and had a kid yeah knowing that there was this trial coming up was that ever a debate or discussion about we've got potentially this case this was not like a planned and decided thing just to be clear okay you know sometimes God gives you gifts that are unexpected yeah and I mean it's been the greatest experience that I will ever know you guys have two children we have two children (00:17:40) so my son is now five yeah and my daughter is three how was it going through the trial with these little kids it was so gnarly like you know anybody so many people say you know the reason why she did this or they did this was to get sympathy tell you what first of all the jury had no idea that this was happening like Elizabeth was militant about not letting people see her in like a place of weakness at this time so we would wake up at 4.30 every morning with a baby with Wills is his name and we would Liz would feed him and we'd change him and we'd get him ready and we'd put him back down and then she would start getting ready and Liz like isn't very good at doing her hair and I like bought a Dyson Airwrap and would help her with that (00:18:25) after watching YouTube videos and we'd get all prepped and get into the car with our family so typically her mom and myself and sometimes my mom and just our closest friends to go to what felt like war it was really hard and she would pump milk all the way down with these like mobile pumps because her son was three months old when the trial started and he needed milk throughout the course of the day and she bought you know a special diaper bag so it wouldn't look like a diaper bag so people wouldn't be able to say anything about it and then we would during breaks during court she would go to the bathroom and pump more milk and then I would collect it at lunch and I'd send it up in an Uber up to the house and then my mom or Liz's mom (00:19:11) who was at the house would then feed it to her son but it was crushing to spend the first you know two months away from this thing that you love more than everything in the world without the ability to hold them all the time it was really tough timing you guys think you were going to win the case 100% yeah 100% there was only a few counts that she was convicted on she was found not guilty this is what a lot of people don't really get yeah so the basic math on it is that there was 13 counts Liz ran about 12.5 million tests on patients at Theranos over an 18 month period the government spent years investigating 12.5 million blood tests on patients yeah it's not like a small number it's a pretty big number in a short period of time and the next year (00:19:57) they were going to do like 100 times more I mean they were going to be the third largest lab company in the country after Quest and LabCorp yeah and the year after that they would have been bigger than either of them and sorry I lost my train of thought can somebody remind me where I was well so we were we were going through oh the counts yeah so there's 13 counts of the 12.5 million tests that she ran the government brought forward four patients that they accused her of defrauding with inaccurate results patient fraud yeah patient medical fraud so like you gave this person a bad result you knowingly gave them a bad result and you were responsible for having done so she was acquitted of those counts so there was no evidence that was (00:20:42) brought forward that was convincing to a jury that there was any fraud associated with patients I think one thing that's really strange to me as an inside observer but also at times an outside observer is diagnostics is like inherently an accurate space 90% accuracy for some tests is good and for other really inaccurate tests 70% is really good so if you're running 12.5 million tests four patients isn't exactly statistically significant to show that there was problems there but yeah she was acquitted of those she was convicted of financial fraud she was yeah so she was convicted of defrauding three investors and then colluding with her partner at (00:21:27) the time to do so so conspiracy and the conspiracy conviction is what gave the judge the authority to give her a bigger sentence yeah that was insane coupled with the fact that they brought in Rupert Murdoch as a victim after the case that's right which allowed them to also add additional time to the sentencing guidelines yes so context Elizabeth was sentenced to 135 months in prison that's 11 and a quarter years and she was the way in which sentencing works is there's all these aggravating factors so they they calculate this through a point system and the points are dependent upon a variety of things so was there you know any aggravation in what you did was what was the amount of financial loss and Elizabeth was convicted (00:22:12) of these three counts of defrauding those three investors which again like I and she deeply believe in her innocence associated with those and I implore you to look at you want to tell me why what I will say which my lawyers would probably kill me but what I will say is they're not here they're watching on YouTube in the next two weeks I ask you to read something that we are going to put out and I'm not telling you what to think but I'm asking you to spend the time to look at it and to think honestly about what it means and I think it's going to be pretty shocking because we have spent years trying to understand what the hell has gone on here and it will be pretty illuminating to understand (00:22:58) what the hell has gone on here one can get a story that's to a lot of people very clear cut the book Bad Blood and the articles and the awards that were given for the investigations and the reporting on these articles and there's a lot of anecdotes and stories and so on that have painted a very clear picture for the majority for everyone I would say this person is guilty of fraud this person should be convicted of fraud tell me about the side of the story that she wanted to tell and the context I think that's her story to tell I can tell you why she didn't tell it why didn't she tell it because if there's such a different story and you guys were so convinced yourselves you and she and it was 100% we're not going to be indicted (00:23:43) we're 100% going to win the case why was that never released and you've mentioned this gag order but maybe just help us understand that I want to be really specific because I know a million people are going to pick this apart and clip it and do whatever they like with this interview but technically it was not a gag order technically what the judge said to the trial team in pre-trial hearings like in the very beginning is that this is a case that's going to play out in the courtroom and not in the press and I think that was the single biggest mistake that Elizabeth has ever made to be like really clear I mean maybe Sunny's number one but it's up there because her power was in her voice her power was in her telling that story and she did (00:24:28) not because she followed the rules of not going against what the judge had asked her to do and that case just ended a handful of months ago it's been a long time in which she was silent she felt like she didn't want to risk going through the court process and winning there by speaking out of court and getting in trouble yeah and she's a really idealistic person you know she grew up in a house with a mom and a dad who both worked for the government her mom worked with Charlie Wilson and her dad worked with the EPA and USAID doing water projects around the world and the (00:25:14) conversations around the dinner table that we still have because her parents are helping me with my kids and they're in my house like all the time I've spent more time with Elizabeth's parents over the course of the last few years they've lived with us throughout the entirety of trial like they're amazing people but they're also very idealistic so the conversations around the dinner table were always around service it was what pain and suffering did you alleviate in the world today so that was always the thing that she was so focused on because that was her upbringing I think if you look at somebody's parents and their lived experience at a young age it tells you a lot about who they are I have to ask because and I tried earlier but I'm gonna get in trouble if I don't ask not in trouble but people will harp on it why did she wear the black turtlenecks and speak in a deep voice why did she wear (00:26:00) the black turtlenecks and speak in a deep voice I've met her she doesn't I mean she's got a deep voice but why did she wear the black turtleneck tell me about the experience you heard from her about being a young CEO and like you know is that where this is coming from where she was always telling her story and she felt like she had to play a role in storytelling I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but I'm just trying to understand the context yeah I mean it's a really heavy subject and I'll touch on it briefly but again this is like her story to tell I think this is probably her calling sorry oh it is but I'm like you know put her on speaker I think the BOP would have something to say about that I do you guys mind if I just say hi for one second I can't call her back because she's in federal prison are you allowed to put her on speaker no like (00:26:45) really she'll get sent to the shoe that's the solitary housing unit it's not a nice place to be this is what I hear every time she calls me I swear to God this was not planned oh hey baby voice and then hang up I'm on stage right now in front of a bunch of people can I say hi yeah Dave can Dave say hi you're not on speakerphone or anything don't worry yeah but I love you with my whole heart here's Dave sorry guys I don't want to get you in trouble so the context is we've (00:27:32) got 500 okay there's thousands of people here we're just talking to Billy okay we'll talk soon bye that's actually her that was crazy I miss you we'll talk soon okay baby okay bye what's it been like um since she's gone in for the kids for you what's it like I mean first of all I am not unique in going through the process of having your your partner in prison um at Liz's facility it's called the Bryan federal prison camp it's a camp which everybody says is like super easy let me tell you it is not uh it's in college (00:28:17) station which is where Texas A&M is and there's 800 women there um and Elizabeth has been there for 1,205 days and every single day has been incredibly painful um but I recognize that I'm not unique in that you know there's 130 million Americans who have a family member that will be incarcerated and you look at their incarceration rates they're insane um but it's really hard to do this alone and I have like a newfound really deep respect for the moms out there that do this by themselves and who are working and raising a family and it's just it's (00:29:03) impossible to have your best friend in the world and the person look I knew I wanted to marry Liz or like have her be my soulmate um when I really genuinely knew that I want my kids to be more like her than they were like me and it's hard knowing that they're spending a lot more time with me than they are her and what do you tell them why is she there and why do we go to prison every Saturday yeah well it's kind of a mix because one's five and the other one's three and the two of them have different comprehension of the situation so my son knows where she is um but to start it was just this is mommy's work he was 22 months old when she went to prison like how do you describe that to a two-year-old um and our (00:29:48) rule is really simple when they ask questions we tell them the truth regardless of how complicated or um or uncomfortable that conversation is we want them to understand what's really happening but it's hard it's really hard and it's hard because I'm building a business and I'm trying to free my wife federal prison and I'm raising two kids what was that moment like when she went in and said goodbye to the kids for you guys for the kids so my kids weren't there um we thought it would be too emotional for them so I flew out we had a friend very kindly uh pay for a plane to fly us out to to Austin and then we stayed the night out there we did some filming with Nathan and Lance um (00:30:34) and then we were told all these things about prison that just turned out to be like totally wrong like we were told that she was allowed to bring like new balances it's like not allowed and you pay these prison consultants who supposedly are supposed to know the system and you're just like woefully unprepared um but what was it like it was one of the hardest things I've ever done um we drove her to the prison uh I got out of the car there's a three parking spots right in front of the facility where she got out wearing these new ridiculous new balances and this like little sweater that was a gift from a friend and I (00:31:20) just hugged her and I said I love you more than everything and uh she looked at me and she said now we are free tell me about the documentary how did it come about yeah pretty crazy huh uh have you guys seen this thing everyone's seen the trailer okay yeah um why did we do it yeah how did it come about yeah do it and what is it well I'm gonna you you will see you will see what it is um for context I also have not yet seen it so I can't pretend to know more than than I do what was the context going into this (00:32:05) yeah the context is that Elizabeth is facing an 11 year sentence she's been prevented from speaking publicly in it in any way shape or form and this would come out after that period in which she's now allowed to talk so uh there's been a lot of media produced on her there's been a lot of people who have told her story and that narrative is pretty ossified so the whole idea was here she is see her and make up your own mind as a person yeah it's not to relitigate the case you don't talk about the case in the document well practically at this time she wasn't allowed to talk about the case so she again was going to follow the rules and not talk about the case so it's just a personal life it's a reality context (00:32:51) of your lives yeah one of the most stressful times imaginable you know we Liz had given birth in February to our daughter Ivy um shortly thereafter she had gone through IVF and then she was going to report to prison like two months later so you guys chose to do this to give an opportunity to tell the story of who she is differently you know it was to have people see who she is because I've gone through this really consistent experience with the people who love me most everybody from my grandmother who's like my idol um to my best friends who are backstage right now where they'd hear that I knew (00:33:39) this person to start or that I was falling for this person or now we're going to have a kid and in the beginning every single one of these people are like Billy you are crazy what are you doing do you know who she is and I'd tell them I understand why you feel that way but just meet her and those people would meet her and they'd spend time with her and they'd see her in a totally natural environment of going on a hike or helping a friend and every single one of those people's opinions of her would radically shift and it wasn't because she convinced them of like something related to Theranos or some like specific detail I think if you guys have the opportunity to meet her to see (00:34:25) this film or to spend time with her that was the intention of the film is to help scale that up and allow other people to sit with her and to make up their own minds how do you think it went so you sit down with well I haven't seen it yet I mean I might think this is like the dumbest thing I've ever done this guy's a pretty unique guy to choose to do this show with this yeah absolutely like and it's been three years so why is it taking so long it was supposed to wrap like so it was supposed to come out within a year of the time in which they first started shooting right so it's been three years yeah it's a long time man have you heard any updates about why it's taking so long and like are you worried out now are you worried about it about what part the whole show like are you worried that they've edited in a way that doesn't showcase who she is but maybe look we say the trait that you look at the trailer yes she looks insane she looks insane and it's like it's (00:35:10) just reinforcing the narrative on this is a manipulative narcissist whatever this the narrative is and it feels like whoa this is gonna be crazy she's like bad yeah it's pretty intense well especially the music it's like I think the music makes it by the way yeah well yeah there we go yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 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