特朗普确诊新冠、首场辩论复盘与 Coinbase 公开信风波

Jason Calacanis (00:00:00): Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another all in podcast. We just got the show notes, and I'm ripping them up because The president has the Rona. We knew this was a possibility we had an incredible docket brewing. But as fate loves irony, We found out on Wednesday night, I believe, just in a brief timeline here. Wednesday night, Hope Hicks is a personal assistant. got the corona. And then, of course, President Trump announced late last night that he in fact had the corona and that His wife Melania also had the coronavirus. So with us today to discuss all things tech politics and coronavirus, David Friedberg, David Sachs and bestie C. Chamath Palihapitiya are with us. I guess maybe we'll just drop it right to you, Friedberg. You you are our science kid here in the class. What is when we look at the president's fizik. He's clinically obese. Technically, I'm not saying that to be cruel, but he's a seventy four year old. He's clinically obese. And Storz Adderall, we don't know that. That's just a claim. But, seriously, what what is the prognosis here? And then I my I understand he's now got a experimental treatment was just announced an hour ago at the taping of this on Friday afternoon. And, of course, we wish them all the greatest speedy recovery, etcetera. But let let's get let's get into the facts here. David Friedberg (00:01:31): I think the o the overall mortality rate for someone of his age is in, call it, the 2 to 4% range. Right? And for someone with with you know, he's not known to have diabetes or high blood pressure, but generally say there's some risk factors maybe associated. So a couple points. But the reality is the treatment that he got is one that's not available to the public and is effectively, like, creating these, you know, taking these antibodies to the coronavirus, and he got 8 grams of this immunoglobulin therapy that is basically a bunch of antibodies that'll eliminate the virus. and they're not widely available. They're not publicly available these treatments. But, you know, based on the early trials and the general experience with using synthetic and, you know, polyclonal antibodies for infectious disease like this. pretty effective, and he should kind of, you know, recover pretty quickly, I would imagine. So Jason Calacanis (00:02:30): he -- So him him buying would basically be a 2 outer. Him getting this special treatment makes it a a 1 outer if we were talking about this in poker terms. Shamoff, when you when you look at this turn of events, and you saw the news, what was your first thought? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:44): That it's now basically a 100% guarantee that we will have all of the most transparent data about coronavirus soon. So for example, you know, we we've been in this position where we've been debating hydroxychloroquine, we've been debating these, you know, all of these different regimens. And the reality is the president of the United States if he doesn't get the absolute top notch care, we're all in some ways fucked. So it's it's probably likely that he's going to get the thing that folks know to work. And then it'll be hard for everybody else to not wanna ask for that. and then it's going to be even harder for everybody to then not get some version of it. And so I think probably we're gonna deescalate a little bit of mask stuff, of testing stuff, of, you know, what the right course of care is. And, you know, frankly, I'll be honest with you. I hope you know, I I wouldn't vote for him, but I hope he's well. I don't want anything to happen to the guy. And I hope that he recovers and it you know, he kicks it in the ass and that whatever he took to get better, everybody else can get it to. Jason Calacanis (00:04:00): Alright, Zach's coming around the horn here talking about the political ramifications of this. You were feeling that Trump was likely to lose. But here we are with the October surprise. And I hate to make this handicapping of the election, but this certainly is gonna have some impact. So with your rain man mind. And when you go through this deck of cards here, what is your brain? How do you assess this as the rain man. Is this gonna be a net positive for his election results? a negative neutral handicap this for us in your mind. You must be thinking through this. And I and and again, disclaimers, we all want him to get better. Nobody wishes him out. I'm sure some people do, but nobody wishes him out. David Sacks (00:04:47): I'm seeing a lot of glee, frankly, on on Twitter. Yeah. a lot of people saying I told you so or karma's a bitch or something like that. Yeah. The you know, it's sort of implying that Trump getting this was was a moral failing, you know. And so, you know, certainly a lot of people are kinda reveling in it. I think Well, he Jason Calacanis (00:05:08): was certainly careless mean, he didn't wear masks. He said he didn't like to wear masks. David Sacks (00:05:12): So -- Well, I mean, do do do wear a mask inside your house? Jason Calacanis (00:05:16): No. But if I was in walking around at a a debate or something like that. And if I was on an airplane with twenty people, yeah, I would wear a mask. David Sacks (00:05:23): Actually -- I mean, You know, there there were certainly a lot precautions around the president. I mean, more than most people. I mean, any of us could get it from anybody. Yeah. You know? If you know, our wife happens to go out to meet a friend for lunch or something like that and then brings it back. So there's almost no amount of carefulness you can do to completely avoid this unless you're willing to kinda lock yourself alone somewhere. So I just you know, this idea that somehow getting COVID is is is a moral failing is is what I would take issue with. It's not it's not altogether unlike the crazy things that The religious right was saying in the 19 eighties, like, you know, about AIDS, like, when, you know, Jerry Falwell said it was God's punishment or something like that trying to imply Jason Calacanis (00:06:08): that -- -- gay I mean, let's just call it what it is. They basically said David Sacks (00:06:12): this is -- They they implied somehow that this was, you know, some sort of just comeuppance, you know, or something Jason Calacanis (00:06:19): like that. Retribution. David Sacks (00:06:20): Exactly. Exactly. And and, you know, the virus doesn't know who it's affecting, obviously. It doesn't target centers or whatever. And so I just think that, you know, that this all this this sort of gleeful sort of blaming this going around is is inappropriate. And I think it could really backfire if if Trump rapidly gets better. I mean, if Trump is better in, say, a week -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:06:45): -- David Sacks (00:06:45): and is hitting the campaign trail again, you know, what what previously will have appeared to be a moral failing could it could now be argued would be a moral strength since he, you know, overcame it so easily. And You know? So I think that if if he rapidly recovers from this and hits the campaign trail again, it's gonna make him look strong. I think that if he has a hard time with the virus, if it's innovating, the way that I think it it took out Boris Johnson. I mean, I've heard British commentators say that Boris Johnson is just not not even same. Doesn't have the same level of energy even now than he did behind before the virus. Then I would think it could really hurt Trump in the last, you know, people lost this campaign. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:24): Look. We I think we all know people, I'm sure you guys do. I do. Who have gone through this, and they all say the same thing, which is this thing really sucks. Now there are all these people that say, oh, it's like dancing on Tulips or daffodils. I've never encountered a single person like that. I see that I see that maybe on Twitter or a friend of a friend, but all of my friends who've gotten it, they have really struggled through it. Some of these people are older, some of these people are younger, some of these people are healthy, some of these people are not. And, consistently, they say the same thing, which is that there's a of days where it literally feels like your chest is being pounded inside you. You can't move. You're just in pain. And then Afterwards, the aftermath is you're at, you know, 50, 60, 70 percent of your lung capacity. Like, it it does some For Jason Calacanis (00:08:13): a couple of weeks. I mean, doc sales is a friend of ours, and he was very public with his experience. He tried to avoid it as best he could. He got hit with it. He got hit hard. And he said he felt like he was gonna die. It was the worst case that was Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:24): I I have friends that that still complain 2, 3, 4 months after the fact that they're at 50, 60 percent of cardiovascular capacity. And, you know, these these people that I that I'm specifically thinking about were really healthy going into coronavirus. And so I I don't know. I just think it's something none of us want I don't think you would want to wish this on anybody. Jason Calacanis (00:08:43): Of course not. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:44): You know, especially, frankly, the president of the United States as a role And so I think folks just need to sort of, like, class up here and hope that we figure out that he, a, gets the best care, and then b, we all know what it is, and then c, that we can get access to it too. That's that's honestly, I think that's all we should be wishing. David Friedberg (00:09:06): Jamal, did you see did you see the letter they published and what he's getting? So they did the Jason Calacanis (00:09:11): ahead and read it. Go ahead and read it for you first. David Friedberg (00:09:12): The doc the doctor published it was not too long ago. Right, Jason? I saw that you're -- It Jason Calacanis (00:09:16): just happened like an hour ago. I tweeted it. Yes. If you So David Friedberg (00:09:18): he got he got 8 grams of polychonal antibodies, this is the Regeneron formulation. So basically, they've isolated the antibodies that neutralize coronavirus that patients have presented in their body. and then they use recombinant DNA technology to produce those antibodies synthetically. So it's a bunch of antibody proteins, and then they turn it into an injection into a formula can put in your body, and you now have effectively neutralizing antibodies. So they gave him 8 grams, which is a pretty high dose. And it gets it, you know, goes in intravenously. You can have sometimes an allergic reaction to that, but it seems like he was fine from that because he didn't announce an allergic reaction. And then, you know, the the the antibodies are now in his bloodstream, and they bind to the virus. So any virus that's floating around immediately gets wiped out and gets eliminated from the body. So, theoretically, this is the way we should treat all infectious disease. That's my point. And I and I do think that by the way, I do and I've written about this. I think that is the future of infectious disease is we're all gonna get a polyclonal cocktail every year instead of getting a blue shot, you get a bunch of antibodies to all the new stuff that's emerging, and it wipes everything out. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:20): David, just think about this. There was so much Raging debate that got politicized between the left, between the right, between different folks of people who believed in different things, around what the right course of care was, there was no single source of truth. I'll just say this again. When you treat the president of the United States and he gets better, that is canonical single source of truth. I'm sorry, but there can be no debate after that that the smartest people with the access to all of the research. I mean, let's be clear. You don't think a call went out last night before they deployed the nuclear warhead stuff to all of the r and d labs and all the big pharma companies and said, what do you got? And the answer came back at the top of the ticket, was this Regeneron cocktail? David Friedberg (00:11:06): Yeah. They they had they definitely have made that call before to prep for this. But, yeah, totally great. Jason Calacanis (00:11:10): Now when you say QM -- David Friedberg (00:11:13): In highlights, what the future of infectious disease treatment is and should be, which is that all of us should be getting a booster shot every year of synthetically produced antibodies that will counteract any new infectious disease floating around in the world. And we're getting to the point in the next 10, 15 years that that should be reality for everyone where we we yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:11:35): It highlights that, but it also highlights that. In the absence of the most power man in the world getting the sickness that we're all gonna basically bitch and point fingers about what the right solution is. And so it can't be the case that the next time there's a crazy illness that's floating around in society. We need to go and target, you know, 5 or 6 of the liters of the g 8 plus the Pope, plus this, plus that, Beyonce, heaven forbid. You know what I mean? Like, this is crazy. Yeah. This can't this can't be how we find single source of truth. David Sacks (00:12:04): Yeah. Well, I think if I think politically speaking, I think there's a lot of upside here for Trump if he does get better in a week. I mean, if the if these polyclonal antibodies work, then and he emerges from the White House, you know, if it is a fiddle in a week. He's gonna say the cure is here. You know? I was right. You don't even need a vaccine. The cure is here. It's over. And and all the I told you so is might might flip around. Jason Calacanis (00:12:26): How far would that be from the truth, David? David Sacks (00:12:29): Well, if the Polycom Polycoma antibodies were, I mean, it demonstrates a matter of scaling them. Jason Calacanis (00:12:34): Can it be scale Friedberg? Is this easily scalable? David Friedberg (00:12:37): Yes. But but but by the by the way, I I I'll just point out the challenge with this is a lot of people north of 15% will have because antibodies remember, they're a protein. And if your cells didn't make that protein, they look like a foreign protein when they show up in your body. Jason Calacanis (00:12:54): Mhmm. David Friedberg (00:12:54): And so very often when you get a foreign antibody treatment like this, you will have some sort of allergic reaction because your body will react and attack that protein. And so it's not as simple as just saying, hey. We should just scale this up and give it to everyone because the clinical trials that are going on with it are to figure out what percentage of people, what's the right way to treat people, what's the right way to protect them from anaphylactic shock, all that sort of stuff that comes along with this sort of thing. So it's not That simple. It's a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:13:18): Friedberg. David Friedberg (00:13:19): We're making it out. Right? Yeah. You you Chamath Palihapitiya (00:13:20): would admit that many of those questions yes. Sorry. The answers to many of those questions must have been well in hand because there's just zero way. David Friedberg (00:13:28): Oh, Regeneron's been running these trials since March. A 100%. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:13:32): 100%. David Friedberg (00:13:33): That's right. they what what they I I I can tell you for sure. When Trump got this treatment, I guarantee they gave him Benadryl, and they gave him a steroid shot, and they probably gave him a little bit of cortisone or they had it on the side. And because that's kind of like the standard sort of regimen you would use when you get this sort of you know, synthesized or or or convalescent plasma type treatment. And, you know, he comes out of this thing on the other end, and he's fine. But the but but that treatment regimen is required. So it's all you know, you sit down at an IV booth and you get a fucking IV and you get shots to go along with it. it's not as simple as just chipping it out to everyone's home and giving them that treatment. You know? Jason Calacanis (00:14:10): It only am I correct that only 300 or so people have gotten this to date? Is that correct with the trial? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:14:16): I I David Friedberg (00:14:16): don't know the answer to that. I I know that convalescent plasma, which is, call it, the poor man's version of this treatment, which is instead of synthesizing the antibodies, you're taking the actual antibodies from other people that have had COVID and recovered, you're isolating those antibodies and you're injecting them in other people's bodies. So that is what convalescent plasma is. It is effectively a soup of all the antibodies from recovered patients. Polyclonal antibodies is the synthesized version of those isolated antibodies where we use fermentation systems and bioengineered cells to make those antibodies then we isolate them, and we and we Chamath Palihapitiya (00:14:49): use them Jason Calacanis (00:14:49): as a robot. -- chance that the president would make a bad decision here because he would get to dictate His treatment as a powerful person like Steve Jobs did tragically. I saw a doctor saying this is one of the problems with powerful people is that they actually can you know, make a bad decision because doctors will let them have too much of a saying. Is that possible in this situation, you think? David Friedberg (00:15:13): think the answer is no because they didn't put out a letter saying he got bleach and and UV light and things. So he's fine. Like Jason Calacanis (00:15:19): -- So he didn't go with his own -- Yeah. -- treatment protocol, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:22): and And also Jason Calacanis (00:15:23): -- Yeah. Go ahead, Jamath. No. I Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:24): was just gonna say, and also, you know, it it eliminated all of the other less nonsensical but equally sort of question mark treatments. And so, you know, I think they went right to the answer, which would only have been really possible if the best docs basically said this is what we're doing And I I think David mentioned this earlier, that it had been decided well in advance. Mhmm. Jason Calacanis (00:15:45): I think that's a good insight. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:46): There's a there's a protocol that was written down months ago vetted and re vetted probably every week or every month as they get as they got more data. And so the minute it happened, there was nothing to talk about. And I and I suspect that that is probably what happened because there is no way you'd wanna be you know, it's kind of like being a pilot. Like, you follow a systematic set of rules to deal with the overwhelming majority of boundary conditions, and this seemed like a pretty obvious boundary condition, you would have wanted to have a protocol for well in advance. So Jason Calacanis (00:16:17): Okay. So I wanna just do one handicapping here. Saxx will have you take this one off the bat because this was the chatter on Twitter. Number 1, the first two, I think, are just crazy conspiracy there is he got it on purpose or he's lying. Put those aside for a second. You can answer them if you want to. But the third one is, hey. What happens if he's in accitated and cannot run, or God forbid, he died. And so if he's on a ventilator, if he cannot Leave a hot police, and I see -- -- even David Sacks (00:16:45): a -- Sorry. -- a question. Not even a question. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:47): The 25th amendment deals with that. Yeah. Yeah. So it goes to Pence. and if Pence cannot do it for whatever reason, but he's I think he's already Jason Calacanis (00:16:53): supposed to -- I was actually gonna refer to the election, though. What happens to the election? If in the next 3, 4 weeks, he's in ICU. What happens then? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:17:00): Oh, that I don't know. Jason Calacanis (00:17:01): Well -- That's what I was trying to understand. -- David Friedberg (00:17:03): to I David Sacks (00:17:04): would assume it's up to the party to to make a change to his ballot if they wanted to. But I think if he's in the ICU, he stays on the ballot. Jason Calacanis (00:17:11): So we would literally have an election with him on a ventilator or him I mean, if he was unconscious, Could he could people still go vote for him? David Sacks (00:17:21): I think he's a Jason Calacanis (00:17:21): very -- -- a possibility. David Sacks (00:17:22): I think he's a very low probability outcomes. I think the I think the most likely outcome here is that because he's got the best care, he's you know, I it's it's probably, like, at least 50% that this is over him in about a week, and it were down to his political advantage. I think there's probably a 40% chance that you know, he's got more like a 3 or 4 week case, which I think would hurt him because he just wouldn't be able to campaign. And then there's maybe, like, a 5 or 10% chance of something more serious. David Friedberg (00:17:53): I wonder if he's got if he even if he recovers in a week, the odds are pretty high that he'll have, you know, a long tail of fatigue. Right? And so if he if he doesn't change his if he changes his strategy and and just does things remotely and whatnot, doesn't do rallies anymore, You know? And and he he doesn't really come out and say he's fatigued, but but there's this behavioral change. Does that change things, do you think? David Sacks (00:18:17): I think he needs to be able to campaign and hold these rallies. I think that's an essential part of his election strategy, but, also, it's always been his way of you know, going over the heads of the media that that hates him and talking directly to people and rallying his base and field testing his ideas. There was that period when during lockdowns when he just stopped doing rallies for several months, and it really felt like he was adrift. So, yeah, I think if he can't do rallies, I think you know, that could easily swing the election a couple of points and then cause them to lose. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:49): I think Saksipoo is a 100% right. David Friedberg (00:18:51): I was in Indiana last week. And there were a bunch of folks in the neighborhood where I was staying, and I I was walking my dog, and they were walking their dogs. So we're all kinda walking side by side, and they all were ramping up to go to a Trump rally. They were super excited about this this moment to go hear what he has to say. They were they sounded like they were kind of in this undecided camp, but they wanted to go to the rally to hear what he had to say and kind of experience that Trump moment It was a real kind of ground level, I think Jason Calacanis (00:19:22): -- David Sacks (00:19:22): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:19:22): -- David Friedberg (00:19:22): proof point for your for your statement around, know, people really need to feel and it because that's a big part of his his kind of MO. Is that ground David Sacks (00:19:30): level -- And I think it was it was one of the reasons why his no one's his election coming in Jason Calacanis (00:19:35): 2016 David Sacks (00:19:37): is if you turned on the TV and just listened to the commentators I mean, aside from maybe Fox, It seemed like everyone just hated him. But if you attended the rallies, you would see that he was reaching a lot of people. Tens of thousands of people at each event, and he was flying around doing three events a day, tremendously energetic. Just so, yeah, I think it's it would hurt him a lot. But, look, if he's back on the stump a week from now, you're probably gonna see all sorts of people on the right saying, you know, I told you so and God healed him and, you know, he must be the chosen one or, you know, who David Friedberg (00:20:10): who knows? We we we could be we could be seeing a weekend of burning moment here. They got it when you got dark. Proppin yeah. Proppin. Even if he's just tired, they'll prop him up on a big stick and hold him up in front of the crowds and then put him back in the airplane and fly him back home. David Sacks (00:20:25): I think we'll know if he's if he's too tired because, you know, he gets up there and he talks for, like, an hour and a I mean, it's Jason Calacanis (00:20:30): like -- He's done 2 or 3. David Sacks (00:20:32): Yeah. It's like Jason Calacanis (00:20:32): -- David Sacks (00:20:32): An hour Jason Calacanis (00:20:33): a half is short for him. Yeah. So is it possible we could be talking about Trump having less energy than Biden in a debate, which I think is a good segue here, are there gonna be 2 more presidential debates? And what was our take on the absolutely embarrassing shit show that we saw on Tuesday night, which was supposed to be the topic today that we're gonna lead off, which was the debate, which seems unimportant now. David Friedberg (00:20:57): It feels like a year ago. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:59): I know. David Sacks (00:20:59): How do you expect us to comment on something that happened so long ago? Jason Calacanis (00:21:02): It was 72 hours ago. I mean, come on, people. David Sacks (00:21:06): Oh my god. It feels like Jason Calacanis (00:21:07): -- David Friedberg (00:21:07): It looks really? -- 2 years. Jason Calacanis (00:21:09): 2020 is so exhausting. I think I've aged 30 years in one year. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:13): It's like my decades. That that debate that debate was just a dumpster fire. You know, the way that I thought about it was Jason Calacanis (00:21:20): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:20): Round. Yeah. Not true. Jason Calacanis (00:21:23): I mean, imagine No. No. I agree. David Sacks (00:21:25): I I it was it was a disaster for Trump. It was a disaster for Trump. Jason Calacanis (00:21:28): Go ahead, explain because he's your boy. Are you now not gonna vote for him after that performance? David Sacks (00:21:34): Just to just to clarify for the audience. I'm not I'm not pro Trump. I'm just anti Jason Calacanis (00:21:39): I'm just voting for her. David Sacks (00:21:40): I'm anti hysteria. I I always support the side that seems least hysterical to me at any given time. Jason Calacanis (00:21:46): Did you vote for Trump last election? Yes or no? Or would you be comfortable even saying that? David Sacks (00:21:50): I think you'd be surprised if I told you who I voted Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:53): Really? David Sacks (00:21:53): But okay. So onto the debate. I think both Biden and trap Biden and Trump both had a trap to avoid. I think Biden's trap was appearing senile. I think Trump's trap was appearing unhinged. I would say that Biden avoided his trap, and Trump did not. By constantly attacking Biden, interrupting him, it was counterproductive. I mean, what you wanna do with Biden was let the man talk. He's a gaffe machine. You know, let him talk, let him say things that will get him in trouble instead. by constantly interrupting him, Trump kinda let him off the hook. And so it's now look. I mean, both of their bases You know, it's like it's like a sporting event. There's gonna root for the side they they already came to, you know, to support. But I don't think Trump helped himself with a few percent of independents who are a lot there, you know, looking to make a decision. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:42): I think you're totally right. It was it was really surprising because if he had just left him to his own devices, You would have let it play out. But I thought Biden, to be honest, there were some moments he was fabulous. So I thought he was excellent on race. I thought he was incredible in the moment that he basically stood up to Trump about his son, Hunter. And he looks in the camera, and he basically says, look, I love my son. My son's had troubles and I support I mean, amazing. And so, like, in those moments, it's so hard to not see that guy as presidential. And I don't meaning, like, it's easy for Democrats or people that are voting for him like me. But I think if you were a Republican, you gotta look at that guy and say, man, that is a decent dude. David Friedberg (00:23:25): Yep. And David Sacks (00:23:26): I thought Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:26): I thought David Sacks (00:23:27): he had. He he did he did he Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:29): did in certain key moments, he did fabulously well, and in other moments where there were traps, He actually got billed out because Trump kept interrupting, and Joe was smart enough to stop talking so that it amplified the sense that Trump was interrupting him. Jason Calacanis (00:23:42): Trump to me seemed pathetic and scared. That was my like, he scared of losing. He felt like a bully who had been, like, last that by the whole class. Like, nobody takes him seriously. Like, the moderator what what's his name? Chris Wallace. Chris Wallace. The moderator was kinda, like, What what are you doing, sir? Please. Where I think Chris Wallace I mean, I know people are critical of him, but Chris Wallace is like sir, please. just trying to appeal to, like, basic decency and Trump just not getting it made Trump look so bad. It just, I think, confirmed with people say the demographic he has to win is white women in a lot of these swing states. I mean, I don't think women want to vote. I'm not gonna speak for a woman here, but My understanding is women don't like guys like that who interrupt constantly and who are belligerent and badgering. And they kinda like a great dad who defended to your point, Jamath, you know, his son and said, hey. Listen. My son's got problems. My other son died. It's a superhero. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:24:36): I really think I really think. And I and I and we talked about this a little bit before, but The surface area in terms of policy between the Republicans and the Democrats now are virtually non existent. So, look, if you unpack foreign policy, they both hate Russia, they both hate China, They both need India, and the Middle East is irrelevant because we're moving to a carbon neutral alternative energy world. They also don't need Russia as an example. So all of this stuff that used to matter before in so much of the foreign policy that dictate how Americans would fight wars spend money, you know, incite democracy, protect certain leaders. It's all out the window, and they both think about it the same way because the surface area is so similar. That's number Jason Calacanis (00:25:25): 1. What about what about the economy? And if it David Friedberg (00:25:26): does seem that number 2 too. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:25:28): So number 2, economically, they're so similar because they both wanna spend 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars just under a different label. You know, one is sort of under a green new deal and the other is called an bill or whatever it is. And then number Jason Calacanis (00:25:40): 3, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:25:40): they will both have the same federal reserve that is tied to the hip of treasury who has already committed to be 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars a year in hawk backing up all the debt that basically exists. And so if you put all these things together, it's a popularity contest, and this is why I think Joe Biden has an advantage because in a popularity contest where you're just picking the figure that you would you know, either have a beer with or feel the most comfortable with, there's an element of this which is like, it's just a decent human being it's easier for Biden to get that across than it is for Trump. And when Trump behaves that way, it just violates some simple rules of decency like They were in the debate against Hillary Clinton, he didn't act this way. And he was more it was like watching like a a show. Like, you were kind of, like, tuning in to see what the theatrics would be or in the debates in the primaries in 2016 against the Republicans, it was theatrical. Here, it was just it was it was just kinda nuts. It was not it was pretty Saks. Jason Calacanis (00:26:42): In that way, Saks, you think the Democrats put up the right candidate because if you did up Elizabeth Warren. If you did put up Bernie Sanders or god forbid both of them at the same time -- David Friedberg (00:26:51): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:26:51): -- it would be a very stark contrast. You would have the socialist ticket that wants to you know, ban the billionaires and stop Calacanis and kneecap it and spend a bunch of money on redistribution of wealth. And here, Biden doesn't He's never said redistribution of wealth. He's never said ban the billionaires. He's pro capitalism. Feels like a safer bet to the majority of Americans that they did the Democrats actually do a good putting Biden up there? David Sacks (00:27:17): I think so. I think he is the most now that we know he's not senile. I mean, I think there was some real question about that going into debate. I think he proved in that faith that he's not. And, you know, he's always kinda had the decency card that Jamal talks about. Now that we know he's not senile, I think he he's he is the the the Democrats' most selectable candidate because he is more centrist than certainly in Elizabeth Warren or some of the other candidates you mentioned. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:44): Elizabeth Warren would have moved the the election to be about substance. And if this in in many ways, strategically no. But think about this. If you basically converge on roughly the same strategy with different labels, you make the election 1 of style. And there are a lot of people who really want decency back in the presidency more so than they want anything else because they already come into the election with a level of skepticism that policy, a, won't change that fast and b, to the extent it changes doesn't affect them. And so, you know, for years, we've been electing people we like, and this is probably the most extreme test of that idea. David Friedberg (00:28:25): I think I think there was, like I mean, like, if you think about that debate, you could probably simplify it down into the audience being part of 3 camps. They either know who they're voting for, Trump, they know who they're voting for Biden, and then some folks who are kind of maybe built, they're changeable. And for the folks that are changeable, the the there's a diversity of objectives. Right? There are some folks who care about the decency, some folks who care about policy. But at the end of the day, I think you you go into this debate with an expectation of Trump and an expectation of Biden. And I would say that Trump was flat to down relative to expectation, and Biden was flat to up. And so that's where I would kinda give the the the the ticker to Jason Calacanis (00:29:05): -- And it it sounds like Chamath Palihapitiya (00:29:06): you're -- Sorry. I don't wanna interrupt, but I just wanna read you this headline President Trump will be admitted to Walter Reed Medical Center on Friday for a few days. David Friedberg (00:29:15): Yeah. I read that that is groundbreaking. Well, well, his doctor said it's because they're out of an abundance of caution. They just wanna have him in a in a place where he can be treated if an Etsy needs it. That may be -- Do Jason Calacanis (00:29:27): you buy that? -- David Friedberg (00:29:27): a a covered story. I think that -- Look. If you don't buy that, Jason Calacanis (00:29:30): I think he's in trouble. David Sacks (00:29:31): I hear you, Jason. That's that it is it is very strange. David Friedberg (00:29:34): When you get a treatment when when you get a treatment like he got today, you know, 8:8 grams of immunoglobulin therapy like that. it sucks. I've had this treatment. I've had immunoglobulin therapy before. And you get knocked out, You you're on all these steroids. You're on all these anti allergy stuff. You're a mess for a day or 2. And, you know, you you wanna get, like, IVs and stuff that, you know, give you all sorts of stuff to go with it. I gotta imagine that after getting that therapy, he's gonna need to be in some degree of care, and I would imagine probably better to just do that around doctors and with all the equipment than try and tap you know, kinda bring everything into the White House. So I don't read it as negatively, but Jason Calacanis (00:30:14): -- David Sacks (00:30:14): Well, I mean, do you do you think it could be, like, an anaphylactic, you know, shock some Jason Calacanis (00:30:19): -- David Friedberg (00:30:20): You might be having some reaction. Yeah. Totally. Like I said, a large percentage of people that get these antibody therapies have some sort of allergic response. It's all the way from anaphylactic to hey. I'm having a my throat's closing. Hey. I feel, yeah, I'm getting flushed. I'm getting a fever. There's all sorts of ways that this can kinda present. David Sacks (00:30:38): So the the world is changing so fast that we can't even complete a podcast without it being obsolete. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:30:43): Can I tell you one other thing? What did you guys think about the This is a little morbid so you can we can choose not to talk about it. But the stock market basically did nothing today on the news that the most important person in the free world, theoretically. Jason Calacanis (00:30:59): I think you just answered your own question, Ajamath. I I could chime in on this one. I don't think that people perceive that Trump is good or bad for the economy either way and that the economy is separated now from politics because they think Biden or Trump are gonna have the same policies, which you said before. they have the same policy. So why does it matter if Trump were to tragically die? No. David Sacks (00:31:18): It it Jason Calacanis (00:31:19): -- It would not make a difference in the American economy. It's not gonna affect people buying iPhones. It might shake people psychologically, but I don't think in a massive way because he's almost out of office. So I think it's all baked in. That's why the market did do it. Then what do you think David Sacks (00:31:31): I I wanna disagree slightly with the idea that selection doesn't matter. I I think it will matter a lot if the Democrats win the Senate as well as the presidency because then they will have one party control, and they can pass much legislation as they want. And I think a lot of things will will get signed. And I think the Biden presidency could be very consequential at least for 2 years while all this legislation has passed even if, you know, he's not you know, out in front saying very much. I mean, the the significance will be in the in the in the pen to sign the legislation. If The Republicans hold on to the senate, but Biden wins the presidency. I agree with you that it's not gonna be a tremendously consequential election because we'll have gridlock and divide a government And so I think a lot hinges on whether Biden wins with or without the senate. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:21): I I don't disagree with you. The only thing that I will say is that I think that Biden will drag the country, especially if it's a, you know, up and down Democratic ticket. back to the eighties nineties more to the sort of the George Baker School of diplomacy and governance. And I think that if I and I don't know him to know this, but I think that if he really were to have a legacy, I'm I I would suspect that part of again, because he's mentioned that, you know, why did he run? He said the pivotal moment was, like, Charlottesville and Trump's reaction to Charlottesville. I think Biden is really moored by this concept of decency. And I think that if if he were there and he thought to himself, I'm gonna be here for 4 years because that's the right responsible thing to do but no more. I don't think that you're gonna see a bunch of crazy legislation pass. I think Biden's gonna say, guys, this is what I expect to do. By the way, did you I because and I and I think I would bet on that because of what he said at the beginning of the debate. He's like, I am the Democratic Party. I don't know if you guys remember that. David Sacks (00:33:25): I do remember that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:27): That was incredible. That was So that Jason Calacanis (00:33:28): was a that was a very Darth Sidious Emperor move when he said -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:33): No. No. No. He was I think he was trying to basically say, like, firewall the the far left or the far left the socialist left and say, That rhetoric is not what I was elected on. I was elected on my platform. I am the party. This is what I believe, and Everybody else will have to toe the line. And, by the way, in the end, that's not such a bad thing. Jason Calacanis (00:33:56): Yeah. It's a man. David Sacks (00:33:57): I I I I agree I think that that was a really important moment for him is for him to say, look, I'm in charge here because the Republicans have been making the argument that he's a Trojan horse for all these, like, far left elements. AOC. AOC. And so it's very it's very important for him to come forward and say, no. I'm I'm the one leading this ticket. Now that being said, and I think it would be a great thing for the country if Biden brought the Democratic Party back to more of a you know, Bill Clinton to -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:34:24): -- David Sacks (00:34:24): you know, Obama type centricism or, you know, center leftism, I guess, you could say, as opposed to this sort of, like, crazy you know, woke Marxism or malice and whatever you wanna call it. Yep. But I'm I'm very skeptical that he will because I think Biden has always positioned himself throughout his career as being at the center of the Democratic Party. And I think he moves as the Democratic Party moves. I agree he's not gonna be all the way to the left of the Democratic Party. But those left elements will drag his sort of center to further to the left, and we'll end up with sort of a a compromise. And I think at the end of the day, if the Democrats win congress, he'll sign whatever they they pass. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:05): I'm I'm not so sure. I I really I really am not so sure. Jason Calacanis (00:35:10): The the White House is not that far away. It looks like it's a 30 minute drive. from Walter Reed. Sending a helicopter? Is that normal? because he drove there last time. Would that be indicative of this as an emergency type situation sending Marine 1 as opposed to just driving there for 20 minutes? David Friedberg (00:35:32): I think it look. There'd be a there'd be a lot of liability if he had an actual meta emergency, and they were just like, yeah. We're gonna send them for a few days out of an abundance of caution. The fact that they said out of an abundance of caution, I think, If there is an emergency, you you can't get away with saying that. Jason Calacanis (00:35:48): Oh, you can. For sure, the goodbye. David Friedberg (00:35:50): I don't know. It'll come think Jason Calacanis (00:35:51): you're saying the Trump administration is above lying about situation. David Sacks (00:35:55): Well, if if if he's unconscious, they gotta swear Pentzen. David Friedberg (00:35:58): Yeah. There's a lot of reasons why you gotta be careful. No. Jason Calacanis (00:36:00): I'm not saying he's unconscious. I'm just saying David Friedberg (00:36:02): it -- It's not even unconscious, my friend. Jason Calacanis (00:36:04): -- one, like, I'm just thinking out loud here. It's sending a helicopter for a 20 minute ride than a motorcade, like, seems a little -- David Friedberg (00:36:11): I mean, I would take a I would take a to the 711 if I had a helicopter. Jason Calacanis (00:36:15): I was like, oh, no. I'm taking a helicopter. Yeah. You're taking a helicopter down to -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:20): Now that is something I would say. Jason Calacanis (00:36:23): Okay. Let's this is, I think, a good jumping off point to an interesting discussion that blew up on Twitter earlier this week, which is We can't keep up with all the politics, the the rhetoric, the vitriol, and this polarization. So coin based cofounder and CEO, Brian Armstrong wrote a letter saying, hey. Listen. If you wanna talk about politics That's fine. Not at my company anymore. We're gonna have a no politics rule, no debating this stuff, and we're going to be ultra ultra focused Focus. I'm sorry. At work. And you can check your politics at the door. When you read this, Saks, you've come out in support of Brian Armstrong. What was your take on his position about leave your politics at the door when you get to work? And then it will David Sacks (00:37:13): be tomorrow. I I think what Bryant so I I did I did compliment it, his his manifesto. And I I think Jason Calacanis (00:37:18): -- Are you an investor? David Sacks (00:37:20): I I am. I'm a small investor in Coinbase, and and and I'm friendly with with Brian. And so I I I certainly you know, like the idea of of defending him against unfair attacks, but I also, generally, like the manifesto. And I think, you know, his argument kinda boils down to to 3 components. I think, number 1, that having these debates on every issue or whatever the issue dejure is pulls the company's focus away from its core mission, which he really emphasized. And you know, that mission mission is challenging enough in its own right. 2nd, he was saying that and it's something I've said before as well which is just that politics is just increasingly divisive in our society. It's just inherently divisive. And therefore, it's it's corrosive to team cohesion, and the more you have of in your company the worse it is for, you know, the the team. And I think the third thing he he he mentioned, which I thought was really interesting, is that the freewheeling debate of or discussion of politics, you know, like like that we're having here, but we kinda have our own little safe zone here. It risks hurt feelings or misunderstandings that can become HR issues because people can then complain about -- They Jason Calacanis (00:38:34): feel unsafe. David Sacks (00:38:35): They feel unsafe, and they report to and so that's a further discussion Jason Calacanis (00:38:39): for commission. -- this podcast, I'll be honest. There was a couple moments. Why think David Sacks (00:38:43): one of the reasons why this pod sort of works is because we're all we're all friends, and we've created a safe space for us to have these conversations. But the workplace is very different. It's not you know? And and and the what I read Brian trying to do is to reimpose a true safe space by saying, leave your politics at the door. Now I think he's been deliberately misconstrued by by critics who wanna say that, well, you have to leave your conscience at the door. You know? That's not true. He's not saying that you can't have your own political views or contribute to to causes that you like. But you just do how to do it on your own time. Kinda like Mister Handset in Fast Times at Ridgemont High. You know? Like, do that on your own time. And I and that makes sense to me. David Friedberg (00:39:28): I think, like I mean, look, I think about this from the point of view of one of the employees working at one of these companies that doesn't wanna be a party to the debate. If I'm an engineer at Google or Coinbase, I go into work, and I am captive. Right? I I don't have the option of not showing up to work. If I go to a rally, I have the option of saying, I'm gonna go to this rally and walk away because I don't like the speaker, or I'm gonna go to the rally because I wanna participate in this dialogue or this debate. I can't do that at work. So it's unfair for work, which is a place that I as an employee have to go to every day to be a forum for people to express themselves on political points that I may or may not agree with, but more importantly, may or may not wanna actually be a party to the discussion around. And I think that's the most important thing to note here is, like, it's not about enabling the free speech of the employees that want a debate. It's about the protecting the workspace for the employees that don't wanna debate and don't wanna be exposed to that. And that's really important. Jason Calacanis (00:40:30): As it Chamath is a person of color who, you know, have, I'm sure, some has some shrunk feelings about what we've seen in terms of police shootings or maybe in your own personal life experience facing racism, again, as a person of color, what are your thoughts on the workplace? Is it is it possible for you to leave that at the door? That was the criticism I think I saw from the, you know, people who were supportive of BLM. And they said the background here was they were trying to get Brian to explicitly say Black Lives Matter and to, you know, have the company rally behind that and that he didn't he he didn't want to have that be part of the work and that he was offering people 4 to 6 months severance if they would leave if they don't like the new rules. So what are your thoughts? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:19): I think that this whole thing became a quagmire unnecessarily. I think that he showed a lot of naivety and, frankly, like, a little bit of stupidity really. It was really poorly written, and that's why it's been so misunderstood and misconstrued. in my opinion, I think a lot of what he had to say was valid. But when it was so poorly presented and, you know, the the essay was, like, 8 minutes and it was rambling and the mission was, like, you know, 97% down on the you know, in the it's just like it was a convoluted fucking mess. So if I had to do it again if I were him or if I was his adviser and he had asked me, you know, to proofread the essay, what I would have said is more of the following, which is our mission, which is, you know, I think to create financial liberty or something something like that. You guys can find out what it is. for the whole world is unbelievably important. We will talk about every issue through the lens of achieving our mission, and we will be disciplined about saying which things matter and which things don't. So for example, if somebody says, listen, I really believe in spaying and neutering dogs, the right answer shouldn't be, hey, shut the fuck up. It says, okay, how does that allow us to maximize our users How does that allow us to achieve our mission? Why does it allow us to achieve our mission? And if you ask the question, why 4 or 5 times in the very first principles way you'll get to the answer. So I would have rather said, we are going to train people how to understand what builds up to our mission and what is otherwise something that you should leave at home. And in that context, there are a lot of things actually that are political that need to be brought, especially into a company like Coinbase, which is working in crypto. which is all about eliminating the financial barriers of people that don't have access to it. Like, you are trying to dismantle an extremely exclusionary part of the economy. And so there are potentially many movements that matter. And those movements in countries in which you will wanna gain users may look like political movements. Jason Calacanis (00:43:38): Well and that was Jack Dorsey's point. He -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:43:40): So I just think yeah. So I just think it was a it was a it was kind of a 2 super fit it was very Silicon Valley esque reaction. It was emotional. It was a little insecure. and it it to me, it missed the mark because there was a lot of validity in what he was saying, but presented in a kind of in a lens of you know, Silicon Valley bullshit, and it was not well thought through. So if he had rewritten it and he had said 99% of what he said, But through the lens of why we are going to think about a 1st principle's way of defining how everything ladders into the mission, he will train his employees. Instead, what he created was a schism at a decision point. And I'm not sure that that's how you maximize value in 2020 as a CEO because at the end of the day, you have to deal with an entire population cohort that is that are in their twenties early thirties, teenagers that will eventually wanna work for you, and whether we like it or not they're different. And one of the things you need to do if you're gonna run an enormous company is understand the psychology of your employees, understand the psychology of how movements and decisions are organized, and then play to win. And it's no different than anybody else. If you wanna be in the job, you know, to be the starting point guard for the warriors, you gotta know how to fucking pass the ball. And if you're gonna be the power forward, you have to know how to do a certain set of things that are different than that. And so I would sort of have framed it there because I think there was a lot of goodness in what he said but presented in a pretty shitty manner. Jason Calacanis (00:45:14): I think it's good he brought up the topic. I do think there's a tactical issue here, and he he could have laid out the ground rules for, I think, to your point, Jamath, of how we should talk about politics at work and what are the ground rules I think the number one issue here, which people don't talk about, is that Slack and email and forums inside of companies have created a massive distraction. And when somebody goes into the random channel, which is built into Slack, and I know this is in the weeds, But I have seen this happen at multiple companies now. Slack infects a company. Somebody creates a room about a topic, whether it's Trump, or police violence or immigration, whatever it is. And then people want to sound off on that, and now you've got an electronic form where people are talking about highly charged issues that makes people feel unsafe. And so what I told my companies was the 2 companies I ran. You could talk about politics. If you wanna go for a walk with somebody and have coffee or lunch and you wanna have a 2 hour discussion about it, go for it. Please do not put this in electronic form because it's a massive distraction, and there'll be a record that could create downstream human resources issues so you report sex. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:25): I have a suggestion. and this is an organizational design experiment and maybe somebody listening will implement at their company. Allow 100 percent free form debate about anything. one condition. You literally need to have a soapbox. And like in the 18 eighties Hyde Park in London, Yep. You put the soapbox someplace in a safe space where you can go and you can talk, and people who wanna listen will listen, and people who need to work can work, and people who don't want to listen don't have to be force built. David Friedberg (00:46:54): What's what's what's the what's the digital version of that that you're suggesting? A literal room. Federal Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:00): a literal place in your office. You put the soap. You have a soapbox. You grab it. You put it on the ground. You stand on it, and you say it. And if you're not willing to do that, then -- Right. Jason Calacanis (00:47:10): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:10): you know, it's okay. David Friedberg (00:47:11): Are are you saying that there's no digital version Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:13): of that? Because people could What I'm saying is that 2 things. One is the digital version is actually training people to ask why. Why does it matter? Now the reason why it's important to ask that is because somebody may say I'll use Jason's example that he loves. We need to support the Uighurs in China. The best way to do that is to proliferate our software in the following way because it will free them from in statement of the Chinese, and it'll give them access to financial independence. Wow. I mean, okay. That seems to be paying off the mission. So if you would if so you gotta give freedom for people to come up with these ideas. because it may the first version of this idea may may not actually be what the final version is, and the final version may be the killer feature. So I and and the digital form in the slacks, it should be why. Respect it's a that's a very respectful question. But why? Jason Calacanis (00:48:08): I mean, it shouldn't it shouldn't be in any digital forum because it leads to chaos because we see that on Twitter. And what's happening is the Twitter derangement that we all suffer from is now infected inside the immunity the communication system that runs the operating system of the company. Go David Sacks (00:48:21): ahead, Zach. Yeah. That that's exactly right. Jason Calacanis (00:48:23): So -- -- me. Go ahead, Zach. Yes. David Sacks (00:48:24): I do I do very Jake on this one. So so look. I mean, Chamath is right that I'm sure I'm sure Chamath would have written a better letter, but I think we understand the gist of what Brian was trying to say. And, actually, I thought it took a lot of courage to to write it. And he's basically saying is that politics has become so divisive in our society that that I mean, it'd be nice if we could have these reasonable debates the way that we're having this discussion inside companies. We didn't have to have these artificial restrictions. But we do. We have to you know, it's the same reason you know, that we have the separation of church and state is because people couldn't stop killing each other over religious wars. And so finally, we had, you know, the treaty of Westphalia to stop it. And what Brian's basically proposing is a is a treaty for the workplace because we cannot get along around politics. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:49:10): But, David, he is the CEO of an $8,000,000,000 company. Could he not have hired somebody to edit that essay? David Sacks (00:49:16): Okay. Well, I mean, look. I I just to to me, like -- It Chamath Palihapitiya (00:49:18): was serious. Like, if it's meaning, If it's seriously well thought through and it and if it was as important as Westphalia, you would probably have a couple proofreaders done. Jason Calacanis (00:49:25): -- David Sacks (00:49:27): it. corporate version. Okay? It's not it's Jason Calacanis (00:49:29): not historical. It could have been polished for sure. Here is Jack Dorsey's response, and I'll have you guys respond to it. I think it's in your wheelhouse in terms of what you said. Chamath, Bitcoin aka Crypto is direct activism against an unverifiable and exclusionary financial system, which negatively affects so much of our society. important to at least acknowledge and connect the related societal issues your customer's face daily. This leaves people behind. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:49:55): I think he's right. You have to view this problem, not through the lens of your own emotions, not even through the lens of the frustrations of your employees. You have to help shift the discussion to say, Why does this achieve our mission? And just constantly in a thoughtful, respectful way, ask why and by the 4th or 5th y, It will either be something that doesn't matter, and you can dismiss it quickly, or something that actually is rooted in fact and probably is something you need to pay attention to. And maybe the way that the conversation started was probably not with the right language that people given the chance would have framed it differently. Jason Calacanis (00:50:31): Okay. The worst take, according to the Internet's Twitter's ability to ratio people, which is when you get more comments than likes, which is not normally how it works. People are actually taking the time to explain to you how bad your take was as opposed to liking it. is what a ratio is, if you don't know, goes to Dick Casolo, who's a friend of ours. Me 1st capitalist, who think you can separate society from business are going to be the first people lined up against the wall and shot in the revolution. I'll be I mean, that's that's enough to get you ratio to have this thing go supernova. I mean, Mike Cernovich is retweeting this and losing, like, his mind over you know, that the former CEO of Twitter is is inciting violence. He's a comedian as well to Costello, so I think he's joking here. And but he adds the puck the exclamation point, I'll happily provide video commentary. Yeah. You David Sacks (00:51:29): you you here here's here's here's my disagreement with with Dick and and and with Jack is, ultimately, the societal value of the company doesn't come from whatever platitudes or political statements as as CEO makes. But rather, from the quality of its products and the impact of its products, And in that sense, Dick and Jack are living in a glass house. I mean, Twitter is a sewer of political diatribe and pilemical hate. You know? It's I don't know anyone who feels better, you know, after spending time on Twitter. You know? If if Facebook is like cigarettes, you know, I I don't know what Twitter is. I mean, it's like Jason Calacanis (00:52:08): -- -- fence at David Sacks (00:52:08): all. -- fentanyl or something. Yeah. So so so, ultimately, you know, maybe Jack should spend his time figuring out how to make Twitter into a less socially divisive product instead of you know, because just issuing Wok Pod choose is not gonna do it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:24): I agree with the I agree with that. I don't think platitudes does it. All all I'm saying is you have to view it through the lens of I want to become the most relevant company possible and achieve the most impact. And I think that there are a lot of times where some of these issues when presented politically, underlying it is actually some feature or some capability or some way of seeing the problem that unlocks more demand. that can help you win and not knowing a priority what the answers to those questions are, it's important to train people on a framework. versus say you can't talk because I guarantee you what will happen is somebody with some killer feature will be too scared to say something because they're not sure how to say it well. And you and I both know because we've seen many companies that have gone through that cycle, those companies decay and die. David Sacks (00:53:13): Yeah. I think it'd be great if a policy like this wasn't necessary. I mean, it's I I agree it's suboptimal, but I think it's it's caused by the fact that people just can't get along around politics anymore. Jason Calacanis (00:53:24): Yeah. Friedberg, what is your take on ultimately how Coinbase winds up the year or 2 after this, do they get more resumes of hyper talented people who want to embrace a politics social issue free workplace or do millennials and, you know, Gen Z and this next group of talented folks say, I don't wanna work for somebody who doesn't wanna talk about these issues at work. And then at the production board where you have a factory where you build companies, do you have some rule around this yourself or thoughts about how you run your companies? David Friedberg (00:54:03): I think the more clearly you define culture, the more successful your company will be. And right or wrong, about whether or not you enable the debate and the discussion and how you define the forums for kind of political discussion within your company the fact that there is a clear definition and delineation around this point, I think removes the uncertainty and I think he'll do exactly what he's hoping to do, which is to get people to leave and to attract other people that that better fit with that cultural model. I wanna put my game face on, I wanna go to work and I wanna win the game. I'm here to play. I'm not here to fuck around. I'm not here to do other stuff. I want this job because I believe in this mission. and I want this company to succeed in what it's trying to do. And I think other places that allow people to run around and, you know, do things that they may or may not appreciate other people doing or and you have this kind of low definition kind of culture where some people are happy, some people are unhappy, it all kind of, you know, slows things down, and and and I wouldn't kind of encourage anyone to to let that happen. think it's really important to just define how it is you wanna operate. You're really clear about the rules and the boundaries and then Jason Calacanis (00:55:16): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:17): And that that I that I agree with as well. I mean, I think very much within his right. And I think it tick it I do applaud his courage in doing it. I just think that it misses the mark because I think it was too emotional. Jason Calacanis (00:55:27): I think he can do a 2.0 version and just keep building on the manifesto and say, hey. Based on the feedback I got, here's how we're gonna do it. No discussion he on the electronic communications -- -- David Friedberg (00:55:38): read read Hastings put out that fantastic PowerPoint that I think we all know really well the cultural playbook from Netflix. he when did he put that out? Like, almost a a decade ago? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:48): No. 2 decades ago. Jason Calacanis (00:55:49): 2000, 2001. David Friedberg (00:55:51): And he's continued to refine it. Right? If you look there's recent iterations of it and they continue to kinda do a better job of defining, you know, how do they intend to operate with people? And I think it's it's only continued to reinforce the innovation that that drives that company into the Jason Calacanis (00:56:07): $100,000,000,000 David Friedberg (00:56:09): plus valuation it's it's earned. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:11): Yes. And if you if there's one important thing which is that there's a meaningful difference in the average age of a Netflix employee and the average age of a sole valid company. Now that may be also part of it as well. David Sacks (00:56:23): I I I I think the one thing that Brian could clarify is that You don't have to check your conscience at the door. You'd it it's not we're we're not saying that you can't have political views. You're allowed to say things on Twitter or take political stands or donate to whoever you want is just that the company itself is gonna be a demilitarized zone. You know? We're not gonna bring we're not gonna bring these contentious, divisive debates that really aren't related to our core mission inside company so we can all work better so we can all work better as a team towards the reason that we all joined this company. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:55): But that's totally fair. But, you know, all I'm say all I'm saying again, I'll just say it again. that is such an important thing to say, you coulda had it proofread a couple times. You didn't Jason Calacanis (00:57:04): -- And coulda coulda been coulda come across the way you were saying it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:07): It didn't have to be written by GPT free. You know what I mean? Jason Calacanis (00:57:11): Well, also, I think that it was a the the dunk he did afterwards where he's like, and By the way, if you don't like it, here's 4 months severance, get the fuck out. That was a pretty aggressive move as well. I don't know how you guys felt. David Friedberg (00:57:26): I think -- I kinda Jason Calacanis (00:57:27): like the gangster nature Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:28): of it. David Friedberg (00:57:29): I think it's I think it's great. It's like, if I'm on the team and I believe in what he just said, I feel great that he's flushing this shit out. And if I don't agree with it, it's like, fuck. Yeah. I'll take it. You know? Like, it's it's really clear. And I think I think the percent the clear cut definition of culture is what every company needs to kind of pursue. it's an ongoing pursuit, and you can always do a better job with it. Jason Calacanis (00:57:47): And culture is what you choose not to do as much as it is what you do. Right? I'm not gonna talk about politics. -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:52): is totally right. a lot of courage to say, here's what I believe. And if you don't if you don't believe in it, then it's okay for you to leave, and here's a severance package. That takes a lot of courage. So I applaud him for that. David Sacks (00:58:03): Yeah. I mean, look. It it it's a free country, and we all have limited time. We should all go work on the mission that is most important and inspiring to us. And Coinbase has a very specific mission that Brian's defining. He's trying to find it clearly. And if that mission is important and inspiring to you, then go work there. And if it's not, then go work at the place that, you know, where where that you know, where the mission does inspire you. And it may be a start up or maybe, you know, a political organization, whatever it is. Go go do that thing that's most meaningful to you. That's kind of my interpretation of what he was saying. Jason Calacanis (00:58:36): Alright. As we wrap here, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:37): it was hard for me to interpret because it was so poorly written. Jason Calacanis (00:58:41): Well, also they were I mean, it was also, like, a huge bomb on Twitter and people's reaction to it was upon. I think how they feel at this moment in time, and a lot of people feel. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:50): This is why I'm sorry. But communications is important how you say things, what you say Jason Calacanis (00:58:55): -- Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:56): style is really important. Jason Calacanis (00:58:59): Yeah. Whether it's by time or Brian. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:59:01): Take the time. Get it right. Jason Calacanis (00:59:03): Yeah. Alright. So 2021 is gonna be upon us before we know it, and I wanted to wrap here with each of your feelings on the economy, technology and politics, economy technology politics, how do you feel About 2021. Are you optimistic, pessimistic, neutral on those? Economy? Politics. David Friedberg (00:59:26): Have you guys ever been to Magic Mountain or Disneyland? You ever get you're getting one of those log rides and it's like raging rapids or roaring waters or whatever they're called. Jason Calacanis (00:59:38): Sure. David Friedberg (00:59:38): And it's just fucking like you hop in and these things just takes off down the river. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:59:42): I mean, David Friedberg (00:59:43): I don't know Nothing summarizes how better for me. But in so many ways is that where I feel we are right now. We've all jumped on a bunch of fucking logs, and we're shooting down this rapid river. And I think a big part of what I'm feeling and Chamath is in the middle of this, but there's this extraordinary velocity of capital right now. And when I say that, I just mean capital is moving in large amounts very freely. And that creates, like, once in a generation kind of opportunity in part because the Fed has dropped interest rates to 0. So there's all there's trillions of dollars moving markets. There's a a change and an outlook and the world is being shifted in in so many ways. this is this really amazing moment that I think we can all be afraid of because we're on a fucking roaring rapid on a log trying to stay afloat. But there is so much happening in in in these markets that we kind of operate in. There's never been a better time to get your business funded or to take your company public or to get customers to make quick decisions and change their behavior, whether they're a consumer or an enterprise customer, money and decisions are happening at a money is moving at a faster pace than we've ever seen and decisions are happening at a faster pace than we've ever seen. That's my general sentiment. I don't think stops going into 2021. There's just another kind of floodgate about to open with this election one way or the other. But these we're we're in the middle of this kind of raging rapids right now, and it's a it's a it's a pretty it's a pretty scary, but also kind of exciting kind of time. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:01:12): So so well said, Kimo. I really agree with you. I I think that it's kind of like if you used to take a second to make a $1 decision and a minute to take a $100 decision, the amount of money being flooded into the economy now allows you to make a $100 decision in a second. Right? So like the order of magnitude of the mental barrier that it takes has changed. And I agree with you. I was thinking earlier this week that it's really incredible time to be alive for one very in one very specific way, which is obviously there's stuff that's happening that's really turbulent. But there is a chance that a bunch of us can really like, change things in a meaningful way, and and I find it exciting. So I'm generally like, I'm super bullish on the economy. I'm super bullish on tech. And I think I'm actually kind of like reasonably optimistic about politics. I think that we're gonna find our civility soon. And and I don't know why that's going to happen or how it's going to get triggered. But I think, honestly, like, the election of Biden will go such a long way to just, you know, just showing what is rewarded. And then to to figure out how to reward the folks that were supporting Trump in the first place for purposes of economic you know, pushback. Jason Calacanis (01:02:50): Could be a nice deescalation, in fact, and maybe an olive branch if Biden can bring that Republican party into the conversation. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:02:58): Yeah. And Saks Saks had this really beautiful thing that he posted on Twitter, which was like, you know, a lot of San Francisco's dysfunction is really going to spread wealth throughout the rest of the country because a lot of cities that were shut out of all these tech gains will now see it. And now you can imagine all kinds of people, there's a guy that I, you know, follow on Twitter. He he he he lives in Bowie, Maryland. He's a engineer at VMware, this black guy, and he was just talking about how he got promoted, and he's now a principal engineer and You know? And I just thought, like, this is really fucking cool. Like, there's gonna be all this redistribution of opportunity all around the country And that'll happen because of coronavirus, because of people's frustration with California, because, you know, of a handful of us how fed up we've gotten with the culture of Silicon Valley, including, by the way, bright what Brian Armstrong wrote, which was in which, again, still very important. And so we'll all be better off for that. So I don't know. I'm pretty optimistic. Jason Calacanis (01:04:01): Sachs Tech Economy Politics 2021. David Sacks (01:04:05): Well, I I I'm I'm super bullish about, you know, how about the entrepreneurial energy in the American economy. It's it's it's a hundred times greater than when we started out our careers in this business, you know, 20 years ago in terms of the number of companies that get funded, the ideas, the tools that are available, the funding. I mean, when you think about it, this might be the first time in human history where money is chasing the like, throwing money at the ideas. I mean, throughout history until, I'd say, last 10, 20 years ago, you know, the people who had no money but had great ideas, always had to go hat in hand to go find the capital. And now it's com it's completely the other way around. There's so many VCs and they're all racing around trying to find the people with ideas. And so -- -- worse Jason Calacanis (01:04:53): than that sex. They had to go give their ideas to a big company and take a salary. David Sacks (01:04:57): Right. Like so Tesla you know, Nikola Tesla, the the original inventor, didn't profit at all from his ideas. You know? Yeah. And so that was pretty common. And And so just this just just how entrepreneurial the US economy has become. I'm very the new economy's completely taken over and I'm bullish on that. I think the the you know, the the tweet that Chamath was referencing, you know, I said that San Francisco's loss is gonna be America's gain, the rest of America's gain because Middle America was really left out of the new economies. It's just not where it was taking place. And so, you know, globalization really gutted industrial America or cultural America. They didn't get to participate in the enormous wealth creation of last 2 or 3 decades. And I think, you know, on I guess, you know, because of what San Francisco has done in terms of driving out companies, I think the the companies are gonna be you know, tech companies are gonna be all over the US now. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:05:49): Yeah. Totally. It's so it's fucking awesome. Jason Calacanis (01:05:53): Should be super interesting. And so Let's just lay the odds as we wrap here on Biden when Biden 6535 Chamath Palihapitiya (01:06:05): approaching Jason Calacanis (01:06:05): 70 30. Okay. David's. You got a you got a handicap for me on Biden winning. What do you think, Sax? David Sacks (01:06:17): Well, I mean, the the the betting line is is, like, somewhere in the 60 to 70% range. And so you'd have to say that the the betting markets are probably, you know, pretty accurate. I guess, you know, probably there is a 70% chance of him winning if I had to bet on that line. I'd probably take the 30% underdog because I think you know, there's there's all it things are so in so much turmoil right now that anything could still happen. Jason Calacanis (01:06:40): So you think there's a chance that Trump could win? David Sacks (01:06:42): Yeah. And it's probably bigger than 30%. You know, it's probably bigger slightly bigger than what the betting markets are giving them credit for. Jason Calacanis (01:06:48): Friedberg, what are your thoughts? David Friedberg (01:06:49): Probably right. Yeah. I don't have anything to add to that. Jason Calacanis (01:06:51): Alright. Any speculation that we wanna end with Chamath on the I just noticed that a meal from Uber is doing a spack. Mark Pinkas is doing a spack. Everybody's doing spacks now. Any speculation on what we're gonna see in that market? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:07:09): Nope. God bless them. And I love you all besties. Jason Calacanis (01:07:14): Alright, besties. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:07:15): Back to the grind. Jason Calacanis (01:07:16): Back to the grind, and we'll see you next have. You know what to do? Share this podcast with your friends if you'd like to advertise on the all in podcast you can't. And so if the best you can do is write a review. or clip it, and we'll see you all next time on the all in podcast. Bye bye.