特朗普的 SPAC、风投流动性见顶、科技作为经济阶梯与民主党用力过猛

Jason Calacanis (00:00:00): Only Saks can lose £20 and look worse. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:04): Saks, you know, with with all with all these gains and all your funds, I would really love for you to cash them out and buy a bell David Friedberg (00:00:10): ask your wife or your house manager to help you find slim fit shirts at the the local Macy's. Jason Calacanis (00:00:15): You'd literally look like you're wearing a parachute. David Sacks (00:00:17): I've never never worn sleep for that thing. Jason Calacanis (00:00:19): -- for a second. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:20): Stand up. David Sacks (00:00:21): I can't. I'm not I'm not wearing pants. Jason Calacanis (00:00:26): Oh my lord. David Sacks (00:00:26): You're gonna see. Jason Calacanis (00:00:27): because many call HR. Are you really not wearing pants? Speaker 5 (00:00:29): I got no. I got I got shorts on. Jason Calacanis (00:00:31): No. That's not true. Are you really wearing shorts? David Sacks (00:00:34): Yeah. I am. Jason Calacanis (00:00:35): No. It's not his lying. David Sacks (00:00:37): No. I'm not. Jason Calacanis (00:00:38): Put your leg up. Show us that pasty leg. No fucking way. Oh my god. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:43): Oh my god. How big are the shorts. That's incredible. Jason Calacanis (00:00:46): He's like Domino's, and he lost a 100. He didn't change his wardrobe. You're rich dude. Change your wardrobe. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:52): Oh my god. Those are, like, 2 tooth big sticking out of a tent. Jason Calacanis (00:00:57): It's like somebody set up a circus tent and didn't tie down the ends. He's he's wearing a parachute at a circus tent. Speaker 5 (00:01:05): Oh my god. I let Jason Calacanis (00:01:07): your winter ride. Rainman, David Sachs. Speaker 5 (00:01:14): And I said -- We open source it to Hey, everybody. Hey, Jason Calacanis (00:01:19): everybody. Welcome to another episode of the all in podcast with us again again. Yes. The podcast with us again today, The Dictator, Shamoff, Polly Hopatia, and the queen of Kinois, David Friedberg in front of some bad art, and from the mausoleum, a spout. Fighting weight minus £20, the rain man himself, David Sachs. David Sacks (00:01:49): You guys gave me the motivation? I mean, this podcast -- We Jason Calacanis (00:01:52): fat change you. -- David Sacks (00:01:53): need you fat shame me. You needled me for months, and I'm like, okay. I'm gonna lose the weight. So I've lost it. Jason Calacanis (00:02:00): What was your peak weight in the last 12 months? David Sacks (00:02:03): I think I was at in the high 1 nineties, and I'm down to about 170 2 now, so it's about Jason Calacanis (00:02:09): £25. Wow. David Sacks (00:02:12): Since since about April or May. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:13): That's really great, bro. That's fantastic. I mean, honestly, your family thanks you. I thank you. As a friend too. No. But seriously, keep it David Sacks (00:02:20): around longer. Jason Calacanis (00:02:21): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:21): really fucking great. I'm really I'm really proud David Friedberg (00:02:24): of you. -- sizing too Jason Calacanis (00:02:25): -- David Sacks (00:02:25): Thank you. Jason Calacanis (00:02:25): -- David Friedberg (00:02:25): or you just cut your diet? David Sacks (00:02:26): It's it's I I I'm doing the same ex exercise regimen I was doing before, which is just running occasionally, but But it's it's all diet. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:34): It's all diet. David Sacks (00:02:35): It's it's frankly severe calorie restriction. And your your immune product has been very helpful. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:41): But is it really severe calorie restriction? Thanks for the plug. David Sacks (00:02:44): I think so. Jason Calacanis (00:02:44): Yeah. We're talking about Munich for the syndicate on the call and the other day. It's Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:50): fucking plunger dropping from the sky. Jason Calacanis (00:02:52): Like, hold on. I'm a David Sacks (00:02:53): lots of plug. I'm a lots of fun. Jason Calacanis (00:02:55): You just need to be needing a plug so you can put a call in plug. You can Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:59): have you're violating our rules of the road that I wrote down. Jason Calacanis (00:03:01): No. No. David Sacks (00:03:01): It's not a violation of the rules because I'm shareholder in Munich. I don't know any interest in that. Jason Calacanis (00:03:06): But are you negotiating a deal? David Sacks (00:03:07): No. But now -- Have you talked Jason Calacanis (00:03:09): about funding Munich? David Sacks (00:03:10): No. I haven't. But Freebrook, can I invest David Friedberg (00:03:16): We we should actually throw that one in the syndicate if you guys want. Jason Calacanis (00:03:20): Yeah. Munich's great. I I did it. I lost some Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:21): weight on it. Saksipoo, what's your what's your basal calorie burn? Did you calculate that? David Sacks (00:03:27): what does that mean? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:28): Like, for a steady state calorie burn on a normal day, like, if you're not exercising or whatever, like -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:03:33): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:33): based on your height, your BMI, your weight, all that stuff. David Sacks (00:03:35): Yeah. I did I did look it up. And I think it's around 2000 calories a day. But but the thing that's super interesting, yeah, there's a calculator online where you could enter your your height, weight, and age, and it'll tell you how many calories that you burn every day. So if you wanna lose weight, you need to consume fewer calories than that. It's that simple. Everything else that people do around weight loss that is not that is basically some sort of game. You just have to consume fewer calories than you're burning. the thing that's really interesting about that calculator is that the number of calories you can burn every year actually changes as you get older it goes down. So the reason why people gain weight as they get older is because you're in a habit of consuming a certain number of calories every day. But, you know, as get older, like every year, you can consume, say, 50 fewer calories a day, something like that. And that basically becomes fat if you cons if you consume at the same level. So you have to cut your consumption down as you get older or you will gain weight. David Friedberg (00:04:27): And in addition to your metabolic fitness, meaning, like, you know, having your exercise level stay up to increase your metabolism overall, you can also add muscle mass. A lot of people lose muscle mass over time. Yep. Muscle burns, more calories per day just to kinda keep functioning. So the more muscle mass you have, the higher your basal Jason Calacanis (00:04:46): -- You lose, like, half a pound to a pound a year after 40. Is that correct? Directionally, Friedberg? David Friedberg (00:04:53): I don't know. But that sounds about right. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:04:54): Yeah. That's what I read. David Sacks (00:04:55): That is about right. Be and I think it's because of this dynamic where people are just consuming the same amount, but they don't realize that they can't burn it. And so it becomes fat. You know, so to my case, first of all, you gotta get your caloric intake down to 2000 just to get to steady state, and that can be a challenge. But if you really wanna lose weight, you need to burn you need to basically consume a few 100 calories less than that. And if you can consume 500 calories less than that per day, considered rapid weight loss. And then you can actually see the results which is very motivating. Yes. So I like the idea of just going for the, like, significant, the 500 calories. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:32): You're at 1500 calories a day? David Sacks (00:05:35): Yeah. I mean, I think so. I mean, I haven't, like, precisely measured it but I've been trying to go for Jason Calacanis (00:05:39): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:39): And is that do you skip a meal? Is that how you get to the minus 500 calories? David Sacks (00:05:43): Yeah. I will either skip breakfast or I'll do a very light breakfast. And then for lunch, I'll do, like, something entirely plant based, like like soup like a vegetable soup of some kind. And then when it comes to dinner, it'll be a more normal dinner, but no carbs, no Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:58): desserts. Jason Calacanis (00:05:58): -- one bottle of wine. Yeah. Wow. No. No. You have a good cyst mindset. Yeah. Yeah. And one one of the things -- -- vegetables first. David Sacks (00:06:06): Yes. Then fish, then poultry, then red meat. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:09): Then red meat. David Sacks (00:06:10): So so it's it's not you're not, like, entirely all one thing or another. You're not, like, all vegan, which would be hard. You're not you it's not like you're all you there's no red meat or something like that. You could do a little of everything, but you have to have a waiting And the weighting is based on what foods have are the most calorie dense. So the the mistake that I think people make, and I think it's one of these trick diets is like with these protein like the South Beach type diet or the paleo diet. Right? Where they're trying to trick their body into ketosis, and all they do is eat a lot of red meat. but those steaks have a lot of calories in them. Yeah. So it only works if you do it perfectly where you totally trick your body and keeping your body in ketosis forever is just not sustainable in my view. It's hard. So I think you're a lot better off just eating less calorie dense food and steak is very calorie dense. So You know, again, you try Jason Calacanis (00:06:59): -- David Sacks (00:06:59): Speaking of fish. Jason Calacanis (00:07:00): -- David Sacks (00:07:00): then then fish. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:01): I I rarely eat beef, but I get to eat it today. And I'm having steaknight, Grace's coming over for dinner. And in the season, he whenever I text him and I say, hey. What do you want for dinner? Draymond's always like fish fish fish fish fish. And I said, bro, I I get to eat steak so fucking rarely. And today, we're having steak. I can't wait. Mountain steak David Sacks (00:07:22): can too. When you get to us because you're on some diet, basically. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:25): No. No. I do I I just observed that I don't eat meat any more than once a week maximum. And Right now I'm probably averaging once every 2 weeks, maybe even once every 3 weeks. And to your point, it's much better. I I do these scans. You know, you can do these kind of body scans to know what your your total water weight, your total muscle weight, your total weight, your total body fat, all of that stuff and your basic metabolic rate. and I just kinda track it, like, once a quarter just to see where it is. And I I agree with you. Like, I've really found that I can't eat red meat anymore. Like, it's like it just really fucks me out, but it's so good. Right. It's so good. Yeah. Oh my god. It's so good. David Sacks (00:08:04): The other one other trick is that you should never consume calories, like, in liquid form. Right? You should only be drinking water, tea, coffee, things like that that don't have any calories. People go to Starbucks in the morning and they they drink, like, Jason Calacanis (00:08:18): 4 David Sacks (00:08:19): yeah. 400 plus calories. Then they have a, you know, cinnamon roll or whatever or banana and Jason Calacanis (00:08:24): not bread. 1200 at the start of the day. David Sacks (00:08:26): I mean, that's it. Years mean, you're gonna be gaining weight on just from going to Starbucks in the morning. There's no now if you do an Americano with a splash of almond milk or something, that's, like, 5, 10 calories, that's fine. But you you have to stop drinking calories. And then the one exception is, like, last night, we did poker. We were drinking wine, so that's fine. You know? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:46): I didn't because I thought the wine was shit. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:08:48): Look. We thought the water was shit. Jason Calacanis (00:08:50): Are you serious? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:50): The whole game was horrible. Let me just tell you all the things Jason Calacanis (00:08:53): that were I hope you gotta go. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:54): Okay? Number 1, I fucking came all the David Friedberg (00:08:56): way up to San Francisco. Jason Calacanis (00:08:57): -- last night, Shamak normally hosts, Saxx, went over the top. Number 1, off is old. -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:02): over the top in air quotes. Number Jason Calacanis (00:09:04): 1, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:05): nobody arrived on time because nobody respects you enough to show up Jason Calacanis (00:09:08): on today. David Friedberg (00:09:09): Jake Jake, I played heads up for an hour. Jason Calacanis (00:09:11): -- David Friedberg (00:09:11): for anyone else showed up. We we were there from 7 to 8 just like heads up. Jason Calacanis (00:09:15): It was fun. It was fun. I took all the free perks money. I own 3% of Munich. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:20): You as the host didn't show up till 9:30, and you spent all of the time on the phone Jason Calacanis (00:09:25): -- David Friedberg (00:09:26): Trade it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:26): Yeah. in the room, trading Japanese bonds Jason Calacanis (00:09:28): or doing whatever you were doing. Pocket to Peter. -- showed up at 10:30. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:33): You know? The game was basically randomly in the moccathonite. Nobody was observing any good decor, run it once, run it twice. There was just nothing going on. You had to scale fish. You had stale fish, okay, just sitting there rotting stinking up the whole fucking room. You know? You had 2013 Colden, which is not even a good just FYI. Okay. 2012. Okay. 2015. 2 I mean so, anyways, I thought it was a disaster. I stormed and up, and I left Jason Calacanis (00:10:00): He did rage quit, and it was quite a moment because we're playing PLO. Finally Saks loses all his money. David Sacks (00:10:07): Amerispods. But Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:08): I did have 3 bowls of ice cream, which I regret at this border. Alright. David Sacks (00:10:13): Sex, Jason Calacanis (00:10:14): in your defense, why were you why did you leave your guests for 3 hours while you talk at your own home, bro. David Sacks (00:10:23): It wasn't it wasn't 3 hours. Jason Calacanis (00:10:25): You guys are being well attended to. David Sacks (00:10:26): I made sure that you were well attended to, and then I had to duck out for -- Well Jason Calacanis (00:10:29): attended to. What are we? Preschool? What do that what are you talking about? David Sacks (00:10:32): Excute a couple of What? Actually, a couple of trades. So Jason Calacanis (00:10:37): -- What were the calls? David Sacks (00:10:39): Well, you know, crypto is like a Jason Calacanis (00:10:40): 20 David Sacks (00:10:41): fourseven market these days. Oh my god. Jason Calacanis (00:10:45): crypto never sleeps. So David Sacks that big. Excuse himself. David Friedberg (00:10:48): Oh my god. David Sacks (00:10:49): I got wired 800k. Hong Kong Gold had to That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So okay. So first of all, the food was amazing. We had, like, Speaker 5 (00:10:59): this incredible David Sacks (00:11:00): You didn't eat it. Jason Calacanis (00:11:01): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:11:01): incredible answer. You didn't eat it. Speaker 6 (00:11:03): You had Chamath Palihapitiya (00:11:03): Brussels sprouts. You had the Brussels sprouts. You ate none David Sacks (00:11:06): of it. I'm on a diet. I did eat the sushi. There's, like, this incredible sushi spread. We had so much sushi most of it didn't get eaten. Then we had pizzas got the best late night pizzas from 2 different pizza places got delivered. There's more than one pizza per person in terms of selection. David Friedberg (00:11:20): It was Tony's in the podcast. You had homemade caramel sauce poured over tomato sauce. That was good. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:11:26): No. Don't let you. That was great. props to the chef at it. Jason Calacanis (00:11:28): Put dolce de leche on the vanilla. David Sacks (00:11:30): Yeah. And the Colgate in 2013 to state 9 is a fantastic ball of wine that I I had another ball of it earlier this week. Jason Calacanis (00:11:36): We just lost 42% of the audience. They are now on the YouTube comments saying, why are these people? Why do we listen to this pod every week? David Sacks (00:11:45): And here here's here's the reality, Chamath, is you were very quiet and sort of sullen the whole night from really the time you got there. track. He didn't really participate in the conversation. And Skye hypothesized that the reason why you were so withdrawn is because you were upset that the game had moved from your place to my place, and you thought somehow I was trying to hijack your game, which is not true. We do a game at my place maybe -- No. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:12:09): No. No. I told Skye no. No. I told I told Skye Text already. I said, hey, guys. we normally run the game Thursdays at my house. I'm happy to come up, but it's harder for me because that's almost due. David Sacks (00:12:19): Right. So you were upset from the or that you were -- No. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:12:21): No. I wasn't. I told I told him that pretty candidly. Jason Calacanis (00:12:23): Like, there's another underlying -- 2 weeks here. Friedberg and Saks have not come to the last three games at Chamonte's house. Is there something going on here? Is it just the commute? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:12:31): I think the commute is hard. I mean, in fairness Jason Calacanis (00:12:33): to you guys, the commute's hard. David Friedberg (00:12:34): I only missed the last game. I went I went Jason Calacanis (00:12:36): to hasn't been coming, and I know he's in he's in town. Is there something going on in Saks where you can't -- Speaker 5 (00:12:41): No. Jason Calacanis (00:12:41): It's it's -- -- anymore. You haven't I mean -- David Sacks (00:12:43): It's it's either the commute or sometimes I'm out of town. You know? So Jason Calacanis (00:12:46): -- You were in town the last couple of times. I don't know. I think you're just kinda you and Chamath maybe need to go for a walk. David Sacks (00:12:50): Okay. I'll come I'll come the next when's the next game? Jason Calacanis (00:12:52): Whenever. The next game is come. But, I mean, you're what are you doing? Staying home, playing chess with Peter Tio on your iPad? I mean, come on. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:12:58): Both me and Friedberg are about to have kids. We cannot. David Sacks (00:13:01): Oh, the game's over? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:13:02): No. No. No. For another couple weeks. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:13:04): We're gonna revert back to that terrible COVID app, iPad app like poker where, like, everyone knows the city color. Oh my god. Jason Calacanis (00:13:10): -- Chinese that was -- Yeah. -- fixed with a bunch of people colluding. David Friedberg (00:13:13): Everyone is Speaker 5 (00:13:14): so angry. Jason Calacanis (00:13:14): Yeah. Well, David Friedberg (00:13:16): we'll get back in the next Jason Calacanis (00:13:17): -- David Friedberg (00:13:17): Let's let's start our show. Jason Calacanis (00:13:18): Let's start let's start the show. First, in Sparkland, Donald Trump has done a spack, and it's for his Trump media and technology group. And he's launching an app called truth social which you can preload I guess in the app store you're allowed to preorder stuff now that that was kind of an interesting feature. The company will merge with the Spat called Digital World Acquisition Corporation, ticker symbol currently, DWAC. It's led by somebody named Patrick Orlando. who is a Florida based investment manager. I'm not making that up. I don't know if Orlando is actually his name. He founded a sugar trading business, built 2 energy distribution businesses allegedly or supposedly. Friedberg said maybe he's a real estate guy who knows. The stock peaked at a $157 a share this morning, Friday morning. David Friedberg (00:14:07): So the stacks started at 10 bucks. Jason Calacanis (00:14:09): It started at 10, so that's 16 x before dropping back down to a 100. It's become a bit of a meme stock on Wall Street bets. Trading was halted. It puts this at something in the range of a well over a $10,000,000,000 market cap. And there is literally no technology, no team And a bunch of technologists looked at the source code just by doing view source, I think, on the on the web pages. And there's an open source project that they called master Don or master Tawn. I don't know. I think it's master Don. That they seem to have just copied the code from. It's a it's like a distributed version of Twitter, and it seems they cut and pasted the code and didn't even change the license. You know, the GPL license, we were supposed to give credit to who wrote the code. So no business, no team, no IP, no users, no money, No office, no nothing. It's basically -- It's David Friedberg (00:14:56): an NFT. This is an NFT. It's basically -- It's an Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:00): exchange traded NFT. It's exchange rate of Donald Trump. The value of this David Friedberg (00:15:05): thing the value of this thing is, like, closer to Donald Trump is closer to Jason Calacanis (00:15:08): 20,000,000,000 David Friedberg (00:15:08): because there's a $1,700,000,000 value they hit certain stock prices according to the press release they put out, but there's not a good SEC filing on it. So at 1.7, that means he got a 170,000,000 shares which are now worth, let's say, at a $157 a share. Donald Trump has effectively $20 plus Jason Calacanis (00:15:26): 1,000,000,000. Oh, so he's finally a billionaire? And he's finally billionaire of David Friedberg (00:15:30): equity value in his stake in the Jason Calacanis (00:15:31): same -- -- actually a billionaire. David Friedberg (00:15:32): And I think this and this is the absolute, like, penultimate NFT. It is traded against a caricature that is a one of a kind, completely rare. This is gonna all of his quote unquote media IP is gonna be licensed into this stack. And so if you wanna own a piece of it, this is the way to own it, and people are trading it like an index on the Donald Trump character? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:57): It's an it's an index on that. I think it's a it's an index on the right. I think it's an index on an alternative to Fox News. The traditional media? The traditional media, it's a huge fuck you'd actually stream media. I think this is good. -- Twitter? Oh my god. It's gonna tilt the hell out of, like, the folks that write at the at the New York Times. My -- Did David Friedberg (00:16:18): he check Dorcey's tweet, by the way? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:21): No. I gotta I'll I'll I'll put it David Friedberg (00:16:23): in the chat, but he kind of he made a comment on it after there was screen Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:27): show as a bonus. Jason Calacanis (00:16:27): It's a grift. I mean, this is a this is this is the ultimate peak grift in the peak bubble of our lifetime. Period. David Friedberg (00:16:35): I think it's a vote. I mean, like Peter Till said yesterday, you know, like, Bitcoin is a vote against the establishment. This is a vote against the establishment. Jason Calacanis (00:16:41): Alright. What are the chances that an actual app launches Sachs. Like and when would that actually happen? When can this crew of dipshit actually write a line of code and actually release a product? You know how hard it is to release product? David Sacks (00:16:54): Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, what they're saying is that they're gonna launch a new social network, I guess, Twitter style called truth social. And the primary interface will consist of a feed of short posts from users who follow, sounds familiar. However, these posts will be called truce instead of tweets and reshares will be known as Retruse. Jason Calacanis (00:17:15): Wow. So richard. David Sacks (00:17:17): So that's what's coming. And The the the slide deck that's available on the company's website lists Twitter, Facebook, Netflix, Disney plus, CNN, iHeartMedia, Google Cloud, Amazon Web Services, as some of TMTG's current and future competitors. So, basically, you know, Trump is proposing an alternative to all the traditional media and social networks that have basically banned him. But I do think that the trading here does represent there is, I think, a groundswell for for social media platforms that are not controlled by Big Tech. And you know, there's Trump has 70,000,000 tech voters sorry, 70,000,000 voters of those, probably 30 to 40,000,000, you'd say are would be fans of his on social media. He's been banned from Twitter and Facebook, and this is his response. He's gonna create his own platform. I don't know whether ultimately be successful, but I think what you're seeing here is the demand for alternatives to, you know, censorious platforms that are controlled by Big Tech. Jason Calacanis (00:18:17): So if he has 30,000,000 real fans, Jamath, what number of them would download the app and participate in the 1st year? He had 90,000,000 line. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:26): He had David Friedberg (00:18:26): he had 90,000,000 followers on Twitter, Jake. Out, which is account. But that's half of the Twitter registered account. Jason Calacanis (00:18:31): We had 70 million people vote for him. So what are the real fans, not just Republicans who don't want Hillary? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:36): I don't think that's the way to think about this. I would -- Okay. Jason Calacanis (00:18:38): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:38): I would view this as differently than this. What's what's insane is you have this entity here which is essentially a cache shell that's now basically you know 300 odd $1,000,000 of cash plus what looks like 18 or $19,000,000,000 of brand value, like of intangible goodwill. And the sum total of that is what the total market cap of this thing is. So if it is 18,000,000,000 then that's what it is. What this allows them to do and this is where it kind of gets interesting is these guys, what it shows me is they could come back and actually raise an enormous amount of money. They could issue, you know, a secondary stock sale. They could do a convert. They could raise 1,000,000,000 of dollars because the demand is there. And then with those 1,000,000,000 of dollars, they could actually do something really meaningful. They could go and acquire an existing app, Jason, Call it -- They could acquire engineers and Jason Calacanis (00:19:30): a product that already exist. They could -- They could acquire -- -- acquire. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:19:33): They could acquire a traditional broadcast outlet and give Trump you know, a way to short circuit his launch of a Fox competitor. So I actually think This is a huge vote. I think David's right. It's a vote against censorship. It's a vote for Trump. It's a vote for the right. It's a vote for alternative voices. And as a result, I think a lot of folks in the mainstream who have trumped derangement syndrome are now gonna be, you know, re awoken and in complete full tilt for a while. Jason Calacanis (00:20:07): Yeah, it's pretty tilty. TMTG plus will be You know, it's terrible branding, but the TMTG plus is going to be there. -- tilted. I'm super no. I'm not Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:18): tilted. I mean, Jason Calacanis (00:20:18): I it's it's a I think the whole thing is just gift. I don't think they'll ever get a product out the door. And if they do, I think they get to maybe 5, 10,000,000 users. They're gonna raise David Friedberg (00:20:26): it up. Jason Calacanis (00:20:26): Jay Kal, they've got they've a $20,000,000,000 market cap. They could do whatever the hell they want. So all people just manipulating the stock like they need stock. David Friedberg (00:20:33): Like Chamont said, they could turn that into into cash. Jason Calacanis (00:20:35): They could sell -- I mean, they could turn a $70,000,000,000. I don't think they can get the 20,000,000,000. Trump today Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:40): in one day is worth more than two times in New York Times. Can you imagine what's going on in the New York Times? Yeah. And that's just brand. Jason Calacanis (00:20:49): Well, let's see. I mean, not all these facts, at a $150 a share. You know? David Sacks (00:20:53): So so, Jacob, I I think you're right that people outside the tech industry really underestimate how hard it is to build technology products that are any good. you know, that have a good UI. They're delightful to users. It does require real talent. And if you're not sort of from the industry, you don't even know what kind of talent you need to hire. However, I think Shamoff has a really good point that with this kind of market cap, they could acquire their way to a portfolio of assets like, for example, okay, Rumble right now. has become the alternative to YouTube among Jason Calacanis (00:21:23): -- David Sacks (00:21:24): Yeah. -- not just conservatives, but anyone who's who's been deplatformed, there's a lot of left now. Jason Calacanis (00:21:28): There's locals.com that you invested in. David Sacks (00:21:30): Yes. Exactly. I invested in locals, which is Dave Rubin's thing. So but but just to take a rumble for a second, is this kind of the YouTube competitor you know, they've got something like 30,000,000 users plus. It's a very it's a it's a pretty big and growing audience. But there is locals. There are other assets. And you could and I think the last valuation of Rumble, I think it was announced when Peter Teal actually invested. I think it was around a 500,000,000 dollar valuation. Even if you paid a gigantic premium to that, I mean, if your market cap's 20,000,000,000, you could spend 2,000,000,000 on that. You could spend Jason Calacanis (00:22:02): 5,000,000,000 on that. David Sacks (00:22:03): Yeah. You know? Jason Calacanis (00:22:04): And so -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:04): And by the way, sorry. Just to dispel this idea, you don't need good UI if you the right feature set. And Reddit is the perfect example where they have always been on the side of free speech And they've always been on the side of allowing people to vocalize and pursue their own passions even if some of those things were really for the mainstream beyond the pale, their UI is terrible but they have thrived because that single feature dominates any desire for elegant UI. And so I think what you're gonna find over this iteration of these apps is how valuable free speech is. And there are enough examples whether it's rumble or Reddit or others that show you that the ability to not be censored dominates David Friedberg (00:22:47): Four Chan, Discord. They're all burdensome. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:49): Right? It's gonna tweet. It's gonna tweak. Oh my god. The -- Here's one thing on the last part. Super mega film. Jason Calacanis (00:22:55): -- figure out how to do data analysis and marketing during his, you know, 2016 campaign, and they did get that guy Pascal or whatever. they figured out Cambridge Analytica. So they did figure out how to get some tech people. Right, Saks? To, you know -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:10): By the way, sort of, can I just do one thing? The other super tilty thing is people will wanna fade this trade and, you know, they're gonna be size up. They're gonna know they're gonna be silently wishing for this thing to crater. And I think there's going to be a lot of profit taking on this because I think it's very speculative. But I think we will all be shocked at the actual closing enterprise value when this thing dies backs because it will dies back. And we're all gonna kinda scratch your heads thinking, how did we not see this? I mean, I didn't see this. I wouldn't ever Jason Calacanis (00:23:38): -- David Friedberg (00:23:38): There's and there's gonna be at least a $1,000,000,000 of cash available when they do their at least. I mean, they can do whatever they want. Yeah. They're gonna have more more cash available to them to invest than in your Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:48): cash flow. He is firmly back in the game. David Friedberg (00:23:52): And by the way, one of one one of the comments Garamucci made to it this morning, it's a very astute one, which is I'm rooting for the spat Because if this actually does destock at this valuation, Donald Trump is not running for president again because he's now got a $20,000,000,000 media business or $20,000,000 of equity value in this new media business that he's gonna keep running. Zach, what do you think? David Sacks (00:24:11): That could be a win win for the Republican Party. But, you know Jason Calacanis (00:24:16): -- So you're buying the stock, you're joining the board? Sachs is leading the b. David Sacks (00:24:21): Yeah. I mean Do the pipe. I I think Shamauthorize is a good point that seizing Reddit have shown that, you know, like, a beautiful UI is not necessarily the feature that users want in every case. I do think you still have to have some tech talent involved in order to produce a good product. Just to give you an example, so this product wasn't supposed to have its soft launch until next month, but somehow Some users found a way to access the site, and they were setting up accounts within hours of the announcement. So one vandal claimed the at Donald J Trump handle and posted a picture of a pig with extremely large testicles. Jason Calacanis (00:24:54): Really? So David Sacks (00:24:56): yeah. Now I would just submit that you at least need to have enough tech talent to prevent something like that from happening. Yes. I mean, maybe it wasn't a vandal. I mean, maybe Trump posted that photo itself. I don't it's not it's not impossible. Jason Calacanis (00:25:10): It's on brand. David Sacks (00:25:11): But yeah. But but, anyway, my my point is they still have to assemble the tech talent to build this, or I like the idea better of just acquiring the the collection of assets that they need I think you're right. I think it's multifaceted. I think it's a social network. But I'll Twitter, I think it's probably some sort of video. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:25:29): Do not underestimate the number of people in Wall Street who are on the right and who will help these guys make very good decisions even if they do it sort of, you know, quote unquote clandestinely meaning they'll never be on the cover of helping them do a big m and a or whatever, but there are there are a lot of those folks that will help make sure that this de specs cleanly, that they have access to capital, that they know how to go and raise and tap the markets. And what's beautiful about the public markets, and you can say this is, you know, an issue, but it's not. In this case, is that, you know, you can go on and basically support this guy in a way that's relatively anonymous because it's not like you have to disclose that you own stuff if you're if you're a private investor. So I think that he's back in the game in a big way, and I think this is gonna really shake up the media landscape if they can x acute well. They just need to think about this as an m and a vehicle, not as an engineering and product creation vehicle. David Sacks (00:26:28): Yes. 100% agree. 100% agree with that. David Friedberg (00:26:31): Would you sell all in for a $1,000,000,000 in equity value at a $100 a share to these guys today? Yes. Jason Calacanis (00:26:36): I can answer her Chamath Palihapitiya (00:26:37): on his behalf. Yes. I'm in a Jason Calacanis (00:26:40): 50. Is that what you were doing on the website? -- 20 ax lift. David Sacks (00:26:43): No. No. Jason Calacanis (00:26:44): I'll take 20 ax and 8 months. David Sacks (00:26:45): Jake, how you wanna be my agent? Jason Calacanis (00:26:48): I think you have a quicker line to Trump either. David Sacks (00:26:51): No. No. No. Jason Calacanis (00:26:52): No. I think, actually, this might be, like, to Peter Till's point, like, maybe don't take the product literally, but take the market cap seriously because this is a lot of if if they can keep even $5,000,000,000 market app, I do agree that does make them dangerous in terms of buying assets. And I do think they can get the 1st 5. All of these right wing services get 5 to he gets 5 to 10,000,000 people to sign up for him. Even his, like, signal, he was at, like, a million, you know, very quickly. He's got, like, a signal or Telegram group, I think. he got to he could buy maybe he could buy Ben Shapiro's daily caller. That's a big media brand on the right that people listen to. David Sacks (00:27:29): Yeah. And keep that superior and keep keep that superior there to run it because Trump needs operators. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:34): And the more disruptive thing isn't to buy stuff on the right. It's to buy stuff in the center or even stuff on the left. Again, it's very hard if you're a public company. It's impossible actually. If Trump Media Group now has a currency, and tries to acquire assets, the directors have a fiduciary responsibility to actually vote in favor of that deal because they're not allowed to look at who the buyer is and say, no. We don't want to do that. So if he puts out a reasonable fair market offer price, you know, of the closing price plus 30, 35 percent. There is not a single public market director in the world. I don't care how Democrat tick they are or how much of a donor they are, they'll always vote the deal because otherwise, they will get personally sued. And that's the liability in public market. So I would be very careful about this thing. This thing is gonna get really serious really quickly. Jason Calacanis (00:28:23): I wonder if there's a tentpole media personality that he could acquire in the same way Spotify got Joe Rogan and Netflix got Dave Chappell. There's somebody they could offer a 100,000,000 hours. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:28:36): They shouldn't do that. They should do what Saks just said, which is that, you know, that that list of, like, the dumpster fire on Facebook every day, which is like Dan Bonigno and Ben Shapiro and blah blah blah. He should just go and get all those guys. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:28:47): That's what I just said. Round them up. But I wonder if there's, like, a comedian, you know, like, you know, Bill Morris obviously hates him. But then is there somebody in the middle who is like a notable comedian on the right sex. I'm not fully vetted on your all right buddies, but who's who's in that all right cohort? that -- David Sacks (00:29:03): Well, I think there's there's comics who are willing to be politically incorrect and non woke. Yeah. So I think that what's his name? Like, Bill Burr or something like that? Is isn't he, like, Jason Calacanis (00:29:12): happy birthday. -- net team Netflix. But, yeah, I wonder if a Bill Burr he hates Trump, though, I think. David Sacks (00:29:17): Or -- But David Friedberg (00:29:17): I mean -- Who is David Sacks (00:29:18): who is the guy who got Ken sold for exposing himself. Jason Calacanis (00:29:20): Louis CK. David Sacks (00:29:21): Yeah. Louis CK. Jason Calacanis (00:29:22): Louis CK. David Sacks (00:29:23): I mean, I'm not saying he's conservative. Right? But You know? No. No. He's available. -- those guys hit. Jason Calacanis (00:29:28): He's highly available. So, I mean, actually, one thing to think about is, you know, Trump got all these people to do, like, the monthly $25 reoccurring subscription. And we got in a little bit of trouble for that because people didn't know they were signing up for it. But I wonder if he could get a million people or five million people to pay 10 bucks a month for Sachs? David Sacks (00:29:46): Yeah. Absolutely. If there's something there behind the the curtain. I mean, if it's nothing but, like, I don't know, a newsletter of his, like, extemporaneous tweets. I don't think so. But if there's real content there from people they care about, why wouldn't they? Jason Calacanis (00:30:00): Wait a second. What if he just did every Friday night, a rally on a video service where he just did one of his 2 or 3 hour stand up routines that had different people come up and talk, like his pillow guy and all of his other weirdos in his -- David Sacks (00:30:12): I think this could be like the I think this could be like the Oprah Winfrey Network where she may, like, anchor the tentpole show or something, but there's a lot of other creators the network. I think that's the opportunity Jason Calacanis (00:30:22): he has. David Sacks (00:30:22): The question the question, quite frankly, though, is whether he's operational enough to actually drive to these outcomes. I think it's very easy for us to imagine what you could do with $20,000,000,000 and his media brand and the question is just, does this get executed that way? Jason Calacanis (00:30:35): Now does it's not gonna be David Friedberg (00:30:37): a real estate sugar guy from Florida that's gonna manage this thing to an outcome. Jason Calacanis (00:30:41): Does Twitter then let him back on the platform if he has this competing platform? Does Facebook? How does that -- No. David Sacks (00:30:47): I see. Are these they have the perfect excuse not to let him back on which is like, hey, we're not censoring him because he's there's an alternative. Jason Calacanis (00:30:53): Mhmm. David Sacks (00:30:54): They don't wanna let him back on. Jason Calacanis (00:30:56): In a way, I guess you have to ask yourself if Twitter had let him come back on and gave him his platform back after, like, a 6 month or a year time out, Would he even be doing this? David Sacks (00:31:04): No. He says and he he has a press announcement where he says that I mean, he says here that Trump Media And Technology Group's mission is to create a rival to the liberal media consortium and fight back against the big tech companies at Silicon Valley, which have user unilateral power to silence opposing voices in America. This is what's given him the opportunity is their censorship. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:25): Their censorship just created a $20,000,000,000 war chest Jason Calacanis (00:31:29): I mean, the the most tilting thing of this whole conversation is it's worth twice as much as the New York time. But I've I've David Sacks (00:31:35): been saying on the show for over a year that censorship back fires in ways you can't expect. Yeah. They never think through the second and third order consequence of their censorship. It's like when Angela Merkel came out and said, hey. Like, wait. Did did Twitter just deplatform ahead of state? Why are we depending on them? I mean, there's all these second and third or consequences they never think through, and now they're coming back to bite them in the ass. Jason Calacanis (00:31:56): Yeah. I mean, forcing people to get vaccines is now leading to whatever percentage of people just retiring or just, you know, are not coming back to work and that's causing a bit of bedlam in the economy as we talked about. David Sacks (00:32:08): All these authoritarian tendencies create a backlash of some kind. And if our ruling elites would just have a lighter hand. There'd be a lot less tension in the country. Jason Calacanis (00:32:17): We had an interesting discussion last night at during but I think it was on the other side of the table, so maybe YouTube didn't hear it. But we were talking about is Biden gonna run again in 2024? And what would that look like? And I just said, I I can't imagine Biden in a debate 3 years from now. Like he he doesn't seem I don't wanna be derogatory here but he doesn't seem very crisp the last time 4 years later. So what do we think? Chances of Biden running in 2024? Chances Trump running in 2024 with all this information. And what would that look like? 0 and 0. You're 0. Freightberg? You even care? Nope. Yeah. I didn't think so. Alright. David Friedberg (00:32:53): Look. I mean, I I I think Trump's gonna run this Jason Calacanis (00:32:55): $20,000,000,000 David Friedberg (00:32:56): media empire and he's gonna be happy doing that. And I think if it's not Biden, it's gonna be a proxy. So it's not gonna be too far off in terms of what the Jason Calacanis (00:33:06): -- You're you're deep in this Sachs, you're hosting as people were talking about on Twitter, and you tilted all of San Francisco or 90% of it. You're you're hosting DeSantis for a fundraiser. David Sacks (00:33:17): It's it's 1st fundraiser for his reelection as governor. He hasn't said anything about his plans in 2024. It's way too early for that. Do I think Biden or Trump could be on the ballot? I think it's 5050 for both of them. David Friedberg (00:33:27): Alright. David Sacks (00:33:28): But I would like to see but look, instead of having two eighty year olds running against each other, I would like to see say, 240 something or you're just younger leaders, you know, giving America a real choice. Jason Calacanis (00:33:40): Alright. Where do we wanna jump off to now venture capital. David Friedberg (00:33:43): Venture capital because, clearly, Saxx is is having extraordinary liquidity events at 11 o'clock at night on a Thursday night that Jason Calacanis (00:33:51): -- David Sacks (00:33:51): Friedberg, money is not made. It's simply transferred from one perception to another. Jason Calacanis (00:33:56): Perception to another. It's a Wall Street speech Sachs was, like, in his -- David Friedberg (00:34:02): He was already going back to the shirt last night. Jason Calacanis (00:34:04): -- logs from Wall Street last night. David Friedberg (00:34:06): He was leaving he was leaving the poker table to go to into his soundproof chamber that oversees his estate next to the poker room. And from there, he was on his phone screaming, pacing back and forth, doing deals, Gekko Stylie had his £300 trader next to him. He was placing orders and something's going on in the market. I mean, Zach, you know, a hotel. But Clearly, the the venture liquidity waterfall that's going on right now is playing into -- Well, David Sacks (00:34:33): it's it it is bonkers. Wait. We gotta show that. chart. Which account, but you David Friedberg (00:34:38): should highlight the highlight the statistics, Jake. Yeah. because it is truly extraordinary how much liquidity venture firms are having this year. Jason Calacanis (00:34:44): Alright. Well, just to look at the value of US venture backed companies that went public or required -- 290,000,000,000, 280,000,000 in 19 and 20. And then this year, 2021 so far, we're at 590,000,000,000. It's literally doubled. But if you look back It was about a 110,000,000,000 in 20 18. So we are now 56x where we were 5 years ago. And this is again the value of US venture back companies that went public or required. So the liquidity is bonkers and we're seeing that in real estate you know, jets being bought, whatever. The VC industry has experienced 3 years of record breaking exits. This is a Twitter user who tweeted it. 2021 is obviously smashing all those levels. David Sacks (00:35:29): Yeah. I mean, we the for for the last until the last 3 years, the preview 15, 20 years, the exits per year were in this 50 to a 100,000,000,000 range. Then they've jumped up to 600,000,000,000 in the year. In in the previous 2 years, it was 300,000,000,000 each. So yeah. I mean, it's just more money has has been made or distributed out in the venture capital industry in the last 3 years. And I think the previous 20 years combined, at least. Jason Calacanis (00:35:56): The last 3 years. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:57): And that doesn't that doesn't even factor in what's happening in crypto. David Sacks (00:36:01): Right. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:02): And crypto is just like -- I'm Jason Calacanis (00:36:03): sure there's something here. Coinbase is in here as in Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:06): Like like, like, in my portfolio as an example, like, you know, like venture returns, which have which have been excellent across the board. So forget mine. Just everybody's. Venture value kind of like slowly ticks up over time. Right? Because, like, you know, you're doing this work and then that work gets valued and then somebody else comes in and raises a new round and you know, you you hopefully can defend your pro rata yadayada. So it it it does create a lot of compounding value, but it's you know and and it's relatively fast, but compared to crypto, it's unbelievably slow. Whereas in crypto, you know, quarter over quarter, you have these swings that I've I've personally never ever seen. Like I was telling you this story yesterday. We own something which I'm not gonna tell you what it is. But it's a crypto thing. And our NAV, I had to mark my book up a billion net asset value on that asset. I had to mark it up because, you know, we have to submit to our auditors and just keep an accurate sense of what our book value is. A $1,000,000,000 in a quarter. I've never seen that in my entire investing career and here's how what it does to me and my whole team. I have a budget for next year of how much I wanna spend. instantly that number goes up. And what it really means is I'm probably just gonna be getting the same ownership but I'm just gonna be paying more for it. And if I'm going through that I think everybody's gonna go through it. What it's gonna do is is like all of these returns are great. All of these increases are great but I'm not sure that there's gonna be that much more progress. There's not necessarily gonna be that many more startups because it's just harder and harder to find good things in the same for the same number of GPs in a place. And costs are going bananas. Salaries are off the charts. I don't know if you guys saw but Stripe, for example, there was a tweet about how Stripe's starting to pay like starting engineers 280k. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:58): I don't know if that's true or not but there was a tweet in Twitter and I thought to myself, my gosh. Like 20 years ago, a starting engineering salary was 5060 k in the Bay Area. And so you've seen this incredible price inflation. So it's actually quite good. Again, it's sort of what we talked about yesterday. All of these gains eventually come back around and get recaptured. And so I think like you're starting to see the beginning of this really incredible cycle of wealth transfer essentially. So the funds may make it but it's gonna come back to Jonathan's Jason Calacanis (00:38:27): and give you a question about the crypto stuff. Is there any worry there that these valuations match reality? Because -- My You might have a very small float on these, a lot of excitement, and they're not actually products being used by customers in Chamath Palihapitiya (00:38:41): the real world. Here's the thing. I because it's an internal permanent pool of capital. I have no legal requirement to actually mark. Okay? But the reason we do it is because we wanna track nav NAV and book value. Okay? And, you know, I compensate my team based on how well we compound book value. But you're right. It's a huge problem because I don't know how to get liquid on these things. And so you see this thing sitting on your your balance sheet and you're like, what do we do with this? How do you move it around? You can't You cannot. And so I would rather there's a there's a great guy. He was an early pioneer private equity and he had this phrase which he said, like, you know, the best way to mark up a deal is right at the end. So if you put in, you know, a $10,000,000 into a series a, if you could be allowed The best thing to do would be carry that at a $10,000,000 value right until the minute you get liquid because then you don't go through the psychological roller coaster ride of having to go through these parks. Because then when these marks come back down, Jason, to your point, there'll be there'll be a quarter where we give back that $1,000,000,000 of debt maybe. You know? Jason Calacanis (00:39:51): I mean, what what do we all do? It's a huge mind, though. Let let me ask a question about valuation. Saks, when you're doing yours because this came up when I was doing mine and and Mark asking my funds, if a secondary transaction occurs and somebody buys Com or, you know, Slack or whatever, it's then when it's a private company, at $10 a share but the last time you purchased it or there was a funding 2 years ago it was at $2 a share. Where do you put the valuation at what the secondary market is trading it at or what you last paid for it or somewhere in between those and who makes that decision stacks? What is the best practice on this? Because Secondary market transactions, people are actually making a transaction. David Sacks (00:40:28): Right. Jason Calacanis (00:40:28): But is that as good as a venture firm, you know, plotting down and joining the board? David Sacks (00:40:33): No. It's not. So first of all, you don't wanna be making these decisions ad hoc. You wanna have a policy. So we have a written policy, and there's a process for amending it if it ever needs to be amended. And What our policy does is it just uses the most the most recent preferred round to give us the value of the shares And then there can be adjustments based on market conditions. Like, we know that and it's usually on the downward. Right? Like, the company we know has had a huge problem, they're not gonna fundraise again. So there's not gonna be a new market anytime soon. Jason Calacanis (00:41:05): You're saying it's a zombie company perhaps. David Sacks (00:41:07): This is a company we can we can mark down. But, basically speaking, we use preferred financing valuations to set marks only. Now we do sometimes buy secondary shares and there's a methodology for bringing value on them. Usually, it's basically what we buy them at. And if we somehow otherwise own common, we'll use 49a. That's what we do. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:28): Yeah. It's I think it's a very, really clean policy. Jason Calacanis (00:41:31): You wanna be conservative in these because nothing oh, you can't. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:34): Yeah. I think you have to be accurate, not conservative. Jason Calacanis (00:41:36): Yeah. Well, I mean, I you could be yeah. I guess the question is, like, you could see somebody playing some games where, you know, you buy, you know, some shares at the you you own shares in the company. You buy some shares as secondary got 2 marks. Right? The Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:52): embedded risk in venture capital has always been the following, which is that you have money that goes in into the a. And there is an incentive today, especially because so much money is trying to come in where you want to drive as much growth as possible because then the b is at such a large step up that the IRRs look amazing. And then the c looks greater than the b, so then everybody's quote unquote making paper money which allows you to create more incentives to raise more capital. The problem with all of that is that if these valuations ever turn out to not be real, or there's a valuation reset or there's inflation or the public markets don't value growth stocks, it takes a long time for it to work its way through the venture ecosystem and all of this liquidity will probably make it even more, you know, violent when it does happen because it'll eventually will happen. We'll go through a rerating like the year 2000, who knows when it is and catalyst is. But that's the real downside of not of all of this is that it'll eventually have a valuation reset that's gonna Jason Calacanis (00:42:51): And to make this super real for people. US Venture Capital Funds have raised a combined 69,100,000,000 in 2020. Ajay passed to 2018 and a couple of these were because of Andreessen Horowitz doing a pair of megaphones with 4,500,000,000 in commitments recently and so It's been just a tremendous amount of funds being made. And then to give you an example, Clubhouse went from a 100,000,000 to a 100000000000 to 4000000000 in under 18 months evaluation led I think each time by Andreessen Horowitz. So what you're saying in an example like this or in your hypothetical example, and I'll just make it a real world one, if they take though and and by the way, these are 202001 2020 stats. I don't know what the 2021 stats are. So those are old stats. There's probably many think actually I have the updated stats. Funds have raised 96,000,000,000 for 2021. That's the most update. In Chamath Palihapitiya (00:43:41): fairness to all of the venture capitalists, I think that they're doing exactly what they should be doing and in fairness to all the crossover funds right now is the time to be putting maximum money to work as fast as possible. Not necessarily intelligently, not necessarily in a concentrated way but the real game if you want to play it at the institutional level is to just put all the chips on the table and then go back to the store and get some more chips as quickly as possible, put them all on the table, come back and get more so that when it all is said and done you have as many dollars working. And the worst case is you will return the average return of the market and if that happens to be good, you're you look good. If it happens to be crappy, you'll be no worse better worse off than anybody else. But meanwhile, you will have collected enormous fees And so that's the point in the cycle we're at. And I think that anybody who's doing it makes a ton of sense. I think it's it's a really logical thing to be doing. David Friedberg (00:44:41): The ones that have had big liquidity events are also firing. I mean, we're seeing across the board, GPs of these ultra successful funds that have returned 5 x plus, taken their yeah. And they got their carried interest, and they share their 20, 25 percent share in that, and they walk away. But if if you look at the value of all global public equities, it's about it's about a Jason Calacanis (00:45:04): $100,000,000,000,000. David Friedberg (00:45:06): And so if you're seeing let's say that we're raising a $100,000,000,000 a year of venture capital, in these funds. And then you're making a 2 and a half x average market return, which is not normal. Right? Let's assume that's the normal cycle we're in right now. that's $250,000,000,000 of liquidity realized in a year out of a Jason Calacanis (00:45:25): $100,000,000,000,000 David Friedberg (00:45:26): of global public equities. that's only a quarter of a percent of the disruption of public equities. And think about it. Technology is set up to disrupt all of these old school businesses that are public and mature and scaled, and that's what the $100,000,000,000,000 represents. So it's actually, you know, kind of looking at it statistically. It's not that unfounded. that we're only seeing a quarter percent market cap disruption of public equities each year because those public companies aren't disrupting each other, generally, maybe to some extent they are. they're getting disrupted by new companies that are merging new startups. And so I don't think that this is, like, necessarily the, you know, the peak, it may kinda be the beginning of a continuing disruption cycle that we're gonna see kind of persist for the next decade or 2. especially as more of the old school industrial businesses, which make up a bulk of that market cap, start to get disrupted not just by software, but also by automation, by ESG angle Investing, by Life Sciences, and all these other kind of technologies. and and these interests, these market interests that are gonna disrupt those old industries. I think we could even see an acceleration from here. So, you know, I don't I don't think that this is necessarily peak frenzy, bubbled, low interest rate fueled outcomes. I think this may be kind of part of a longer term trend that is statistically probably not that big a deal. Jason Calacanis (00:46:40): Sachs, are you concerned about this peak bubbly market, or do you think, you know, like Shamak said, push all your in and raise as big a fun as you can. And, you know, if the game is gonna be played at these high stakes, you wanna be at the table. David Sacks (00:46:55): Well, I I I like what Fredericks said. I think it's a super interesting point that this could just be the beginning. Look. We we we live in an age of accelerating tech the returns from that accelerating technological progress also be accelerating. You you you know, we we had this thesis 20 years ago when the Internet first started that you the new economy replaced the old economy. It took a few years longer than people thought, but we are fully there. And the number of new companies being created now is just exploding. There a lot of this the this liquidity that's being generated is being now pumped into the next set of funds, which will go to founders. They'll be able to create more companies. They'll be able to keep more of those companies because the there'll be less dilution. And then a lot of this wealth is trickling a lot of the VC money is trickling down into the competition for salaries. So anybody really anywhere in the world who can learn how to write code can now, you know, make a 6 figure plus salary because of remote work. So all the salaries all over the world are equilibrating. So, I mean, this is an incredible pathway to prosperity for I mean, certainly the United States, but really the whole world. Jason Calacanis (00:48:03): For humanity. David Sacks (00:48:04): through many. It's really positive, assuming it keeps going, assuming it's not just totally liquidity driven. And, you know, I don't know exactly you know, how all those macro forces will play out. But but, I mean, this seems very positive overall. The other the other thing it'll lead to just quickly is a change in who has political power because, you know, ultimately, you know, money is the mother's milk of politics, and and the people who are making all these returns will eventually fund politicians. And and, you know, I yeah. Well, I yeah. I'm one of them. Yeah. But, look, I think there's 2 kinds of, like, I'd say prototypes politically speaking for people in the technology world. You've kind of got the the sort of standard will progress as you're funding a lot of this crazy stuff like decarceration cities, whatever we talked about that before. But I also think there's another prototype that's less loud, and they feel that they're they kind of keep their views more to themselves, which is I call them Liberal Terrians, who are sort of liberal on social values, but libertarian on economic policy. They don't like government regulations certainly if they're in the crypto world. They don't like government regulations. They could see how they create, you know, friction to progress, and they believe in markets. And and they I think they're gonna wanna fund politicians who support that those types of things. So, you know, I could be very positive politically in that respect. Jason Calacanis (00:49:29): What's interesting, I just wanna build on what you built on what Friedberg said, which is I think the best point you made was look on on a global basis of the opportunity for an individual. somebody who is, you know, graduating high school college, they're eighteen, nineteen, twenty years old. Because of remote work, anybody can work from anywhere. Technology companies have unlimited resources. and they need an an a never ending supply of developers or even a salesperson, a marketer, you know, back office, etcetera, and they can work from anywhere on the globe and make a 6 figure salary, you know, whatever, 50, 60, 70, 80 k for one of these entry level jobs in sales. and all the information on how to get those jobs is available for free from startups that have put open courseware online or very free courses. Yet we're looking at this massive technological change and the New York Times' position is that technology is destroying humanity and polarization of wealth is destroying humanity. What we're actually uncovering here is all of this money being invested in these companies is giving an opportunity for people around the world to get high paying jobs David Sacks (00:50:31): Totally. And actually, can I can I can I maybe mention a really interesting item in that was just in Politico today, which is about Al Sharpton, was lobbying in congress against changing the carried interest treatments. Remember, you know, all of us in VC make our compensation in the form of carried interest. Jason Calacanis (00:50:51): Explain what it is. David Sacks (00:50:53): Well, it's basically you know, if a fund is in profits that, you know, the VC will get the VC's firm will get, say, 25% of the upside after they pay back all their LPs. That's called the carried interest because of the way that these partnerships are set up that is treated as a capital gains as opposed to ordinary income, assuming it meets the holding periods of the underlying assets. So There's a big debate about whether, you know, VCs and private equity people should be paying ordinary income or or long term cap gains on those returns. Al Sharpton was lobbying against changing it because in this political article, he was saying that it would impede the efforts of black entrepreneurs to build lasting wealth if you jacked up the tax rates because there's a lot of fund managers and, you know, who who are black who are making a lot of money now and they don't want to be subject to this change in treatment. So that was super interesting. You know, this tech boom is not it's not exclusive. I mean, the the tech industry gets this rap as if it's this highly exclusionary place, it's not. I mean, 3 of the people on this pod right now are immigrants. So, you know, the wealth that's being created is not going to traditional centers, traditional, is not going to the errors of, you know, northeastern families or something who've been saying their kids to Harvard and for generations. It's going to entirely new people who haven't had this kind of wealth before. And that's interesting. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:21): Another positive externality of this well all these massive gains that folks who have invested in venture capital have gotten has caused one really interesting positive change. So Amherst, which is a really exclusive liberal Arts College in the Northeast, made so much money, their endowment is so flush with cash, they basically eliminated legacy admittances, which means if your parents got in, You were 70% likely to get into Amherst. An equivalent kid whose parents didn't go to Amherst had a less than 6% admit rate. Right? So a huge disparity. Basically said, if you are a legacy kid that exists you know, we all know this. It exists at Harvard, and it exists at at all these Ivy League schools. But Amyris is now so has made so much money through VC Investments as an example. They're like, we've canceled admittances. So there's there are there are some really positive things that are happening with all this money that's being made. David Friedberg (00:53:19): Al Sharpton's rationale aside anyone's gonna get wealthier, they're paying less taxes. So I think, you know, you're broadly -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:53:28): -- David Friedberg (00:53:28): you're you're gonna see a bit of a focus on that point. Jason Calacanis (00:53:30): Obviously, we just won Cal Friedberg. California was massively in the bonus in terms of budget, surplus, and cash because of this issue. and they were spending money like drunken sailors. David Friedberg (00:53:41): Yeah. I mean, I I just think you're gonna hear a lot of positioning for, you know, the case. And and and by the way, I think that, you know, building individual wealth creates this is obviously a philosophical point, but, you know, it creates a greater path to prosperity for more people through the spending that Bill Underdo in in growing the economy than you know, than not. So I I don't know. I mean, I feel like the Al Sharpton point is a good one to kinda make, but it's it's a broader one than that. David Sacks (00:54:08): Well, I think that so to in my view, the broader point about the disruptive thing is that it shows that we talk about this group of rich people, the the wealthy, the millionaires, and billionaires as if it's a static class of people, at least this is the progressive attack. It's not. I mean, what Sharpton points to is that this group is constantly changing, there's new people getting rich. So when we talk about the rich, if it's new people getting rich, what we're really talking about is success. And if you really want to ban people getting rich, I mean, you're talking about banning success, our country can't be successful. That way, we're not gonna be able to outcompete China if we're preventing success. And by the way, we can't fund all these progressive programs if we are, you know, hamstringing success. So, you know, I think this what we've created here with this highly entrepreneurial free enterprise system that's funded by venture capital This is the golden goose of the American economy. And the most important thing is that we don't break it. Jason Calacanis (00:55:01): Saks, it might just be we may have underestimated its power is what we're sort of realizing collectively here today is that we've always thought that this thing is hitting all time highs. This might be the beginning. Right? Like, it feels like this is getting bigger And, you know, and going out of velocity that is different than even when we came into the industry. If, you know, the amount of exits, the amount the scale of these companies, the coin bases, the Robinhoods, the Ubers, the slacks. I mean, these are giant companies making huge international impacts. David Sacks (00:55:31): I think it's either that or this whole thing is liquidity driven bubble. So it's one of the 2. It's it's both. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:36): It's both. Jason Calacanis (00:55:37): Well, I mean, I also think the the Sharpen thing is a very interesting point that we can go back to maybe episode 25 or 20 when we started this podcast, which was Trump got massive support from the black and Hispanic community because of this entrepreneurial Friedberg upward mobility pitch the Republicans were making. That's the perfect pitch for the Republicans, not this divisive, divisive, you know, shut the border down, but more, hey. We want everybody to support it. And I thought when -- How how crazy is this? -- is Michael Chey. Did you wanna just add on this, and I'll give it to you, Michael Che was on the breakfast club when our our friend was hosting SNL and he said, I don't know. I think white people just don't like their billionaires for some reason. It's weird because we love our billionaires. If Oprah Talim Perry was coming, we'd be excited about it. And I met Michael Chaney there, and Michael Chegg was really excited. He he's a fan of Elon's and, like, it was a really great conversation they had. David Friedberg (00:56:31): It's so true. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:56:32): It's so true. Jason Calacanis (00:56:33): Like, why are we hating people who are changing the world and helping. David Sacks (00:56:37): Right. Because it's it's not we. It's it's frankly, it's white woke progressives. They're crazy. They're the crazy ones. Jason Calacanis (00:56:43): -- bonkers. We have to get purple. David Friedberg (00:56:46): I think conservatives and what you call woke progressives are the same. I don't think it's about a political affinity I think it is about people feeling like they don't have the opportunity that others clearly were able to realize, and it is amplified and magnified by a social media that that basically shines a light on the success that people have had in a way that we've never had in history before and it creates a great deal of feeling like I'm missing out and I'm being left out. And that's what's driving a lot of the discontent on both the left 100%. It's not a it's not a political point of view. I think it's a social point of view. And the great progress we've had and the great success we've had as a society over the past couple of decades is now being realized through this media in a way that's kind of driving emotional conditions for people that haven't had the same level of success. Jason Calacanis (00:57:33): Maybe if they stop tweeting and complaining and just learn some skills, Like -- I just the only complaining on Twitter -- -- only Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:39): as the only colored person on this pod, what I'll tell you is I I it's very rare that I meet a colored person that hates a successful other colored person. Just doesn't exist, guys. Jason Calacanis (00:57:48): Tell us more. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:50): Just one of these things where, you know, we were we are all grinding. We all know how hard it is to be on the outside looking in. If any one of us makes it, there's a lot of support. Jason Calacanis (00:58:00): I mean, we see that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:01): That's just what that's just we we say that's what I felt. So Jason Calacanis (00:58:04): -- David Friedberg (00:58:04): South African Jews don't feel that way. Jason Calacanis (00:58:07): No. I mean, we see that in the incoming emails and tweets to you, Jamov. You you are inspiring people in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka. We see it constantly. They come up to you at events, and like, hey, if Chamath can figure this out, I can Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:18): do it. I'm about to do this thing in Africa, and I'm going there in December. I can't wait. And, you know, we're thinking of just doing a couple of, like, lectures and talks and stuff. Jason Calacanis (00:58:27): Let's do it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:27): Lectures and talks. And these these these places are gonna get rammed with people, and it's like, it's beautiful to see, like, Yeah. I just think that the minorities, like, don't hate on other people that are successful. It's just not Jason Calacanis (00:58:38): -- David Friedberg (00:58:38): You're you're going to Africa in December? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:40): Yeah. Why Jason Calacanis (00:58:41): do we do all in Africa? What are we doing? Like -- Where are you going? I got some stuff cooking. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:45): I got some stuff Jason Calacanis (00:58:46): cooking. Let's go. I'm getting email constantly by people who are starting startups in Africa. I wanna go. I've never been. I really want to go. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:52): You can come with me in early December if you want. Jason Calacanis (00:58:54): I'm in. I'm a 100%. I have nothing to do. I'm bored. -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:56): thing that I wanted to talk about for What is crazy? And this is Jason to build on your Trump comment. We may be facing a situation. I'd love to get your guys' reaction where Donald Trump and his first 2 years of his presidency may act actually have gotten more done than Biden will get done in his 1st 2 years. And I just want your guys' reaction and thoughts on how that possibly could be because we have a Democratic president. We have a Democratic congress. and we may not get anything done. David Sacks (00:59:26): I I can speak to that. Jason Calacanis (00:59:28): Here's your alley oop. sex with the windup. David Sacks (00:59:31): I I can't believe that the way the progressives have done this reconciliation, Bill. It's been crazy. Okay. Look. From the beginning, they've been saying Biden and the administration, the Democrats have been saying, we wanna do the biggest package of tax expense since the great society. Okay? But here here's the thing. If you wanna do LBJ type things, you're gonna have LBJ type majorities. They've got a 5050 senate and a three seat margin in the house. LBJ, when he passed the great society, he had, like, 69 centers. He had a filibuster, super majority, filibuster proof super majority in the senate, he had something like a 150 seat margin in the house. That is the kind of margins you need to pass great site like programs. So instead of having, I'd say, ambitions that were reasonable, the administration caucuses with the progressives. They come together with this full over 4 and a half 1,000,000,000,000 of spending, 3 and a half in the social welfare, 1,200,000,000,000 of infrastructure, and they want it even more. Okay? And then they've been trying to jam this thing, and they never went to the center of the party to cinema to mansion and said, hey, what are you guys willing to do? And so somehow I think they thought they could just jam this thing through over the objections of these votes that they absolutely need and I think there's really this mentality on the part of the progressive left that I think they're so used to jamming people with speech codes and cancellation and censorship and COVID mandates that are not passed by legislatures but have been imposed by edict. I think they're just used to jamming people, and they think they're gonna shame people on Twitter like these centers like Mansion like Cinema into voting their way. Guess what? It doesn't work that way. Twitter is not the real world. Eric Adams showed that in New York. Speaker 6 (01:01:06): He won David Sacks (01:01:07): that election. Exactly. Dave Chappell is Dave Chappell has a 95% approval rating. Okay? The critics hate him, the world progresses hate him, guess what? You know how many people were actually at that Dave Chappell protest? Like, 3 dozen. Okay? The progressives don't have the votes. What they should've done and by the way, their their conduct through the whole thing has been insane. AOC has basically been saying, if you don't give us everything we want, we're not voting for your 1 -- You overplayed those. Jason Calacanis (01:01:31): These guys have, like, ace jack off, and they're David Sacks (01:01:34): They're putting a shot their head saying, hey. Unless you give us 3 and a half 1,000,000,000, we're not gonna vote for 1,000,000,000. Really? You're gonna do that. How does that make sense? We call their bluff. We know Progressive will vote for every penny they can. What the what Biden should have done if we had a more hands on president who actually want to get things done, He and he knows this from his time in the senate. He should have gone to those swing senators as a group and said, hey, what can we get done here? Not to AOC and Pelosi. They can't deliver. They can't Chamath Palihapitiya (01:02:01): do it with Jason Calacanis (01:02:01): the -- -- promise of Biden. I'll say, you know, as somebody who voted for Biden, I'm a little disappointed, was he was supposed to be moderate, and he was supposed to bring people to the center. and it doesn't feel like he's actually, to your point, Trump. You asked us what we think. I have I'm not regretting because Trump had to go. It was too much chaos. There was just too much risk having him in there. So I am glad I voted for Biden. But I am unhappy that he cannot build consensus down the middle and get the far left to just, you know, pump the brakes. I I I understand they have passion for certain projects, but just get something done moderately and in a phased approach? Why does this have to be so huge and confusing? Do a smaller thing three times. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:02:40): Saks is exposing What we may not know which is that progressives are very loud but they may not actually represent a plurality of people. So for example, in the Netflix protest, I saw a video and there was about 2 dozen people, you know, and one person actually had tweeted, hey. I I never even showed up to the office yet, but now it's showing up to walk out of the office. But then what happened was there were some other people that showed up. And in the middle of the protest, they had a sign that said, you know, jokes are funny, I like jokes. And then everybody started chanting that Then a black woman got up, and she started to say black lives matter. And then everybody got confused and started to chant black lives matter. And then they were all looking around each other trying to find direction in this protest, and it became somewhat directionless. And I think this is what, you know, we're we're now realizing is that, you know, remember what, like, as managers in corporations, we've all heard this term, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. But it may actually be the case that the squeaky wheel shouldn't get the grease because it's a head fake, and we're gonna get lost in misdirection. Another example of this, there's a guy Dorian Abbot and I wanted to talk about this as well. This is a guy who's an acclaimed climate professor. Okay. Let me just give you the whole story. I'm just gonna read to you because I think it's interesting the first couple paragraphs of the story from The New York Times. MIT invites geophysicist historian Abbott to give a prestigious public lecture this autumn. He seemed a natural choice. He's a scientific star who studies climate change. and whether planets in distant solar systems might harbor atmospheres conducive to life. Then a swell of angry resistance arose, some faculty members students argue with that doctor Abbott, who's a Prophet University of Chicago, had created harm by speaking out against aspects of affirmative action and diversity because in videos and opinion pieces, he wants people and members of groups rather than as individuals. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:04:36): He basically favors a diverse pool of applicants selected on merit. So but he said, his planned lecture at MIT was about climate science. and to help people understand climate change and would make no mention of his views on affirmative action. But his opponents argued that he was infuriating inappropriate and oppressive and so they canceled the lecture. Now here's the question I have. here that's another example of all of this stuff. Are we better off with let's just say there's a 100 grad students, a 100 brilliant minds at MIT being pushed to think even more specifically about climate change by an expert who can do that? Or are we better off finding some more middle of the road person who may be not be as intellectually ambitious around climate change but has a whole bunch of other views not related to climate change that are more palatable. And what does that do for all of us, including probably all these people who probably want a solution to climate change, but who have now held back the ability to teach these kids. What do we do? What do we think about that kind of stuff? And this is where, again, the squeaky wheel in this case did get the grease, but are we actually better off in this example? Friedberg? David Friedberg (01:05:51): diversity of thought drives successful outcomes? Jason Calacanis (01:06:02): Alright. Thanks for coming in for the all in podcast. We're telling you shit you already know. David Friedberg (01:06:07): I mean, like, what are we talking about? Jason Calacanis (01:06:08): For yourself, people. listen to a bunch of opinions. And if somebody says something you don't like or challenges you, maybe that's an opportunity for you to learn or grow or for you to make a blog post or do your own stand up special and give your own talk that challenges their debate. Like, we do here every week. David Sacks (01:06:24): Right. But, I mean, you David Friedberg (01:06:25): you get the more -- -- the same thing happen with that what's that ult a conservative young guy, Saxx, who went to Berkeley a few years ago, and they blocked him Jason Calacanis (01:06:32): to join David Friedberg (01:06:33): the campus. No. No. No. The no. Greek name. Jason Calacanis (01:06:35): Greek name. Milopolis. Milo Yiannopoulos. He's the right wing guy, the gay provocateur. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:06:41): Here, we're talking about an expert in climate change giving a lecture about climate change. to grad students who would who could then go and solve climate change for the all of the world. I mean, this is MIT and you you Chicago, which are probably 2 of the smartest institutions of people in the world. David Sacks (01:06:56): Right. He's not saying anything politically offensive. It's just that his unrelated views, they view they think are anathema, and therefore, they're gonna protest and block him. And, of course, you know, they're they always use the language of safetyism which is, oh, well, if you allow this person on campus, it threatens my safety. Really? This person's a physical threat to you? No. He threatens my self conception. Really? He said something that, you know, he's gonna talk about something that offends you. No. It's just that, you know, he said things that that threaten my view of the world. So my safety is jeopardized. I mean, this is this is literally the language that's being used now. I mean, FreeBird's reaction to it is, yeah, this is so obvious that we don't even need to discuss it. But it's not so obvious that it's not place. It's happening. It's happening. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:07:40): It's happening. Jason Calacanis (01:07:41): You know what I find the most disappointing about the whole Netflix situation is I thought Dave Chappell you know, even though maybe the special wasn't as funny as other ones, I thought it it made you think in such a just incredible way. And I always were actually read that I looked transcript and I read the transcript so I could think more about it and try to form an opinion about this turf issue and trans people and you know, people punching up, punching down in comedy. It made me think. And then the entire discussion about this is just people walking out and no discussion about what he actually said and that to me is just a little bit of a tell like if you are so upset about what he said well, where is the transcript of what he said? Break it down sentence by sentence and tell us exactly what he got wrong and why so that we can continue the discussion The Netflix walk out and how this thing has unfolded, the reason it's so unproductive is because they're not moving the discussion forward. They're not actually listening to to what Chapelle said and spoiler alert. If you haven't seen it yet, I'm gonna talk a little bit about the what was in it. He talked about his friendship with a trans person, who was a comedian, and how he and she had these incredible discussions and learned a lot from each other and how she was dragged on Twitter, and a lot of tragic outcomes, and I'll leave it at that. But there's no discussion about his relationship with that woman who had a tragic faith and the substance of what he said, did you notice that Chamath that there's no discussion about the actual words and points that Dave Chappell made? That shows you that this is a disingenuous or a broken discussion? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:09:14): Yeah. I just I just think that the problems that we have as a society are really big. Friedberg talked about it. We have inequality problems. We have climate change problems. You know, we have problems of sort of like systemic health issues. These are all fixable and I think that this other stuff is getting in the way of people getting organized to solve those issues. Jason Calacanis (01:09:37): 100%. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:09:38): And I think that that frustrates me. I would have really I'm not sure I agree with this guy's views on affirmative action. Let me just be clear. I kind of I think on the margins for mid batchions, actually, it levels the playing field. And so I support it. But I also sort of the fact that if this guy is a brilliant geophysicist then he's already proven that, I would want my kids to be taught climate science from him. Sure. I don't I don't think he's out there to try to, like, pedal his affirmative action views, you know, to a bunch of other physicists I don't think that's what he's doing. No. That's not what he's celebrating for. life's work. And so I don't care. I would want all of those really brilliant kids at MIT to have to be one step closer to proposing a solution to climate change. I think that's a pervasive global issue. And we don't have the ability to prioritize these things. And and and that's what's just so sad. David Sacks (01:10:34): We're not gonna have an honest conversation about climate change because we can't have that expert give us talk. And I don't think we're to Jason's point, I don't think we're having an honest conversation about the Chapelle special. I don't think any of us believe that Chappell hates LGBTQ people or I don't think anyone in the audience thinks that. And I think you have to deliberately misinterpret what Chapelle is thinking in or saying in order to believe that his message is, hey. I don't think it is. Now what I think the Chapelle special represents a threat to is perhaps this idea of intersectionality that all of these oppressed groups have to be on the same team. What he seems to be saying is there's a group of what he's kinda making fun of is that there's this group of sort of Pamper, rich, white LGBT queue people who have made enormous progress. I mean, doesn't he say at one point in the special that, you know, I wish I wish my community, you know, black people could have made as much progress in 40 years in terms of acceptance as this group has. And yet, this group now wants us to immediately adopt all of their language and sensibilities and and punches down, talks down to us if we don't. I mean, that's kind of the point he's making as he's kind of revealing a little bit of a rift between these between these two groups that are supposed to Jason Calacanis (01:11:49): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:11:49): By the way, if you saw the if you saw the clip of the protest, that rift was actually in display because everybody got confused about what they were supposed to support because you had one set of chance and then you had jokes or funny chance and then you had BLM chance from completely different cohorts of people and it just became a chaos. Jason Calacanis (01:12:07): Well, I mean, everybody's opinion must be put through the lens of how many oppressed groups they're from, you know, obesity. I'm black. I'm gay. I'm trans. I'm short. Whatever. I mean, like, how do we have how do you even navigate a discussion intelligently If I have to say, okay. You're Sri Lankin, but you're rich to mouth and Friedberg, got asperger's, but he's really smart about that. What do we mean? It's like, just make your point and let's have a honest discussion about it. And why are we so upset about this special when in China, you know, we've got a million people Uighurs being sterilized and tortured then I don't know if you saw this week Xi Jinping is saying, like, he wants to get rid of the Sissy people, a Sissy man in the term he's using in China. Right. They literally -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:12:51): Well, they pass Humana rules against -- Yeah. -- the feminine men. Yeah. I mean, why why Jason Calacanis (01:12:57): are we not protesting that Well, David Sacks (01:12:58): we we saw this in the Middle East as well. The real threat to LGBTQ people are these authoritarian governments that really want to oppress. You know? Trust. They want them murder. And murder gay people, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Chapelle is not the the the threat. I I think I think Chapelle had to be silenced because What he's saying is actually very heretical to the progressive left, which is that not all of these groups on the same page And they, again, they believe in this idea of intersectionality that all these groups have to basically be on the same page. And, actually, the more oppressed groups that you're part of, the more elevated you are. And so this idea that there could be a schism actually is something they want of silence. Jason Calacanis (01:13:39): Yeah. I mean, Chapel quote, I don't disagree with the trans movement. I disagree with the way they're going about it was his kinda point. And he's and and the thing Chamath Palihapitiya (01:13:47): that -- Again, let me speak up as a as a as a colored person who grew up in a minority family. You know, I would love to tell you that my parents were super, super open minded, but that would be a lie. And I love them to death and I think they tried their best, but they came with a ton of fucking baggage and a ton of stereotypes and, you know, I don't think that my parents would have been the most supportive of other minorities. whether it's color or sexual orientation or whatever. And it was a it was a lot of, like, very complicated conversations to explain to them how to see the world differently. And that's what happened when you pluck them out of a third world country and drop them into Canada. And, you know, I think that my parents came far a very long way. I remember, you know, when when I first started, you know, dating my ex wife, it's like it was a very complicated thing for them to see me dating an Asian woman. Very complicated. They didn't understand. And then it was like, well, do you did you want me to marry or date Sri Lanken? And they were like, yes. But as long as she's not Muslim, And it's like, what the hell are you like, what are you saying? This and and so I I'm just trying to tell you that this idea of intersectionality, it does play out in a lot of our lives because we all come from family especially our aging parents Jason Calacanis (01:14:58): -- Oh my god. Yeah. -- are -- My grandparents, there were some My my I Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:03): mean, like, I love my Jason Calacanis (01:15:04): students, but Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:04): I I'll be honest with you. They're you know, they try their best but man. Jason Calacanis (01:15:08): The thing that's got me particularly saddened or tilted or just you know, the the thing that just sort of hits me is we've made so much progress in in so many ways as a society, yet we don't celebrate that And we seem incredibly focused on marginal issues to your point each month that are not global warming, that are not education, that are that are not, you know, international relations and geopolitics, you know, like, there's economic empowerment. There's so many things that we could be focused on that would actually make change than arguing about canceling Chappell. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:45): And it would unite -- Like, having Jason Calacanis (01:15:46): a heart on the -- This Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:47): is -- You know? Jason Calacanis (01:15:47): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:47): but it would unite people. That's what I think is so that's what I think is such a great opportunity. If we all collectively came together and focused on a bigger enemy. Right? Jason Calacanis (01:15:56): Climate change. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:57): Climate change. I think you'd find people to be much more accepting of each other because we would have a common shared goal, and then we would find commonality in achieving it. David Sacks (01:16:06): Yeah. So Jake, I'll Bill Mar invented a word to describe what you're what you're saying, which is progressive phobia, which is it's the reluctance to admit any progress because of the fear that if you do admit progress, then that means that you don't you will lack a justification for all these, you know, progressive programs that people want. And so they have to make the situations always seem as dire as possible in order to scare people into a certain agenda. But, yeah, there there's a, you know, unwillingness to admit how much progress we've made in so many areas. Jason Calacanis (01:16:35): The the time they tried to cancel me was because I said on Twitter, isn't it amazing that every single skill you wanna learn right now and including the high paying jobs is now available for free on MIT course where anybody can learn the stuff for free, and you used to have to pay $50,000 a year and get accepted into these you know, Ivy League programs. But now all that information is free, and all we need to do is expose people to it and give them the motivation, the time to do. And they will, like, How could you say that? You know, people are not able to do it. And I was like and then a bunch of people replied. Who were people of color or people who were poor and said, I actually learned to code on the MIT website. I learned artificial intelligence. I learned I got my degree in, you know, social media marketing or whatever. At this website, Udemy, that website, other tree house. And all these people were saying, yeah. I learned all these skills and I went from making working at Walmart to making 60 k a year, 70 k a year. And then there was this big fight, like, are you gonna cancel me for saying there's more opportunity now than ever? I hold that position. There was more opportunity now for you to learn a scale and get a high paying job than in the history of humanity. The system is more fair now than ever. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:17:39): Yeah. I was gonna say Jason Calacanis (01:17:40): further. -- argue Chamath Palihapitiya (01:17:41): with that? In the in the world of in the world of progress, there are some amazing innovations every day. This week and I put this in the Chamath. Then, Nick, you can post the article. There is a gentleman in at the n y c n y NYU Langone Center of Medicine who transplanted a pig kidney into a human and had that human kidney or basically had that pig kidney not get rejected. Now this was a person that was brain dead and I guess, you know, the family, you know, God bless them Jason Calacanis (01:18:13): -- Oh, wow. -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:18:14): donated this person's body to science effectively. They were kept alive, but then they were able to transplant the kidney in and they were able to see the urine production and creatinine production And all of a sudden now, there is a chance that we could actually use pigs, genetically engineered pigs as a basis for us to basically get kidneys, hearts, lungs. That is incredible, Friedberg. So so to your point, Zach, That is happening still every day, and we don't talk up enough about it because we're up in arms about Dave Schappel. Jason Calacanis (01:18:46): Freeport, tell us, you know, if that in 10 years what that looks like. and and the impact of us in society. If we if we take that pig transplant and we just 10 x it from now, put a couple $1,000,000,000 behind it. What does it look like in a decade? David Friedberg (01:18:58): Well, I think there's other techniques that are being developed that you could actually generate actual human organs using, you know, basis of induced these induced pluripotent stem cells. And regardless of the path, I do think, like, availability of organ transplants it's gonna go up like crazy. The big infrastructure and technical challenge we still face is we've gotta build these these GMP facilities to make all of these cell based therapies, not just kind of organs but also other cell based therapies that are becoming kind of the mainstay of the future of medicine, personalized medicine for humans And so there's also this kind of tremendous infrastructure opportunity. We've talked a lot about we've talked a lot about infrastructure in biomanufacturing broadly and other life sciences opportunities, but there's a tremendous infrastructure opportunity to build out facilities that can produce these you know, these these therapies, and the therapy can be an organ or or a cell based therapy that can target cancer in your body or or what have you. And so you can kinda think about, look, we've resolved the science. Now we've also resolved the engineering. The next step is to build it. Right? And so this is, like, you know, the bill decade or the bill decades globally for where the intersection of software and biology has enabled these incredible breakthroughs in human health and manufacturing and food. And now the infrastructure needs are there. I've said this before, I do think this is where we are have the biggest gap in terms of infrastructure needs and the biggest opportunity to kind of fill those needs. And if we if I were to kinda be in congress or be president, I would say this is the number one priority for an infrastructure bill because once you get this going, it's gonna change lives and it's gonna change the economy. Jason Calacanis (01:20:49): So high speed rail costing us 50,000,000,000, 100,000,000,000 versus this. Yeah. Yeah. Or we could build out -- -- to JMP facilities or David Friedberg (01:20:57): a bunch of biomanufact facility. There's a lot of stuff that we could build that would, you know, pay back within years and have a huge outcome. private markets maybe will meet this demand, but I think you gotta you gotta kick start this stuff. The economics are gonna be unfeasible for a while. if you wanna get a CAR T therapy, which is a a type of therapy that's personal you know, personalized CAR T therapies today, your cost is about Jason Calacanis (01:21:20): $450,000. David Friedberg (01:21:22): you know, a local university here, I was speaking with one of their their lead doctors the other day, they've built their own GMP facility at a cost of $50,000,000 and they can now get the therapies down to $40,000 per patient. But they can only serve 250 patients a year. using that that kind of 90% cost reduction. So you can kind of see, like, as you build these systems and this is built locally by a university. Right? It's not built for industrial scale, these guys aren't commercial operators of these facilities. So if you start to build these facilities from a commercial point of view and you can bootstrap some of these things and this infrastructure cost, Very quickly, the cost becomes so low that you see these technologies proliferate. And I think we should see that both you know, this organ transplant 1 is a is a great case study, cell based therapies, biomanufacturing, all sorts of opportunity. Jason Calacanis (01:22:12): You keep saying GMP facility. Sorry. Good. -- manufacturing for -- Yes. David Friedberg (01:22:16): Yeah. It it's it's you know, if you're gonna make cells that are gonna go in your body, there's incredibly stringent requirements on the safety and the cleanliness and the practices that go on in that facility. So these, quote, unquote GMP facilities have a very specific criteria of how you how you build and how you operate them. Jason Calacanis (01:22:32): They're just highly their high quality facilities is what you're saying. David Friedberg (01:22:36): Yeah. Think about, clean room to make semiconductors except, in this case, you're making cells that you're putting in your body. So you gotta be really careful. Jason Calacanis (01:22:42): Alright, everybody. It's been 70 minutes. 75 minutes, 80 minutes. Anybody have any last minute plugs for products that they wanna disguise as a complement to another bestie? David Friedberg (01:22:53): I still think we should launch bestie coin, the all in coin, and monetize the all in podcast. We were talking about this at poker last night. Jason Calacanis (01:22:59): -- David Sacks (01:22:59): monetization. No monetization. -- NFTs. Do we get it to yourselves? Jason Calacanis (01:23:03): No. Bestycoin. Besty coin would be incredible. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:06): I think I I wanna tell you about this guy. Lee Jackie who's known as the lipstick king in China. He did a 12 hour live stream on Wednesday on Taobao. Jason Calacanis (01:23:17): 250,000,000 Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:18): people tuned in. He sold Jason Calacanis (01:23:19): $1,700,000,000 of product. So basically the equivalent of the entire adult population in America watch this. Isn't that incredible? That's awesome. David Sacks (01:23:28): That is amazing. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:29): That is just incredible. Jason Calacanis (01:23:30): So that's QVC. And as if in two and a half times the people who watch the Super Bowl. It's two and a half Super Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:37): Bowls. Jackie, the lipstick king. The lipstick king. David Friedberg (01:23:40): God, we haven't had Monty on the show in a while. me bring him up. Oh, Monty. Get him to the mic. Monty. Jason Calacanis (01:23:45): Yeah. Monty, you wanna say? Some Monty fan service. For those of you asking about the all in, Summit. We are looking at locations in Miami, and we will have news shortly. If you want to sign up for the email when Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:58): are we doing this thing? Jason Calacanis (01:24:00): We're gonna look at March, April, May. David Friedberg (01:24:03): But we're gonna do a we're gonna do an LA show in January. Jason Calacanis (01:24:07): We're gonna do a live all in podcast at the upfront summit, Mark Suster's event in LA, but that's like a closed event. and then the all in summit, you can go sign up for email updates summit.allinpodcast.co.summit.allinpodcast.co. not looking for volunteers. We're not looking for event planners. We have all the spaces in Miami. We could possibly know every single person's email. Just thanks to the fans for giving us every piece of information. Right now it's just about date, date, dates. We gotta find a 2 day date. And then whatever place we use, like Feaina, the New World, the Jackie Gleeson Theatre. There's so many great facilities there that have reached out to us. Once we pick the facility, we'll know what the facility capacity is. Some of them can fit 2000 people, some can fit 250. When we figure that out, then we'll figure out ticketing and and and how we get people there. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:24:55): time next week, both Friedberg and I may have kids. Jason Calacanis (01:24:59): Ah, that's awesome. David Friedberg (01:25:00): So are we are we skipping next week? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:25:03): No. I'm actually not giving birth. I don't know about you. David Sacks (01:25:06): But -- K. Jason Calacanis (01:25:07): No. We gotta get pictures and yeah. I think it's it's gonna be incredible. congratulations, guys. And if this Africa trip is coming, I I Chamath Palihapitiya (01:25:14): that was Africa trip is happening. I Jason Calacanis (01:25:16): can't wait. Do you do you what countries are you thinking about? Tagging a log. Of course, I listen. I this is one of my life. I have my own what's the point of having my own schedule and approaching great powerful friends who are traveling the world doing interesting shit I'm a I'm the ultimate wingman. David Sacks (01:25:29): Your motto as private jet will travel. Jason Calacanis (01:25:32): I'm a wingman. Professional wingman as a service. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:25:35): Kenya, Nigeria, Ghana, and there may be a couple other places. Jason Calacanis (01:25:38): Wingman has a service. That's if you need to somebody fun with you for a couple of you know, touchdowns, takeoffs. Wingman as a service. David Sacks (01:25:48): He's leaving with something. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:25:49): I'll bring Sunny as my body double. Jason Calacanis (01:25:53): Yeah. He send him send Sunny in another Escalade. They all -- Just Chamath Palihapitiya (01:25:57): in case. Jason Calacanis (01:25:58): -- paparazzi follow him, and then we go in a little -- -- case. a a Honda Accord and you go to the actual events. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:03): I can't wait, actually. I'm super excited. Jason Calacanis (01:26:05): Oh, that's gonna be fun. Yeah. Oh, man. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:08): I think so. Jason Calacanis (01:26:08): Get your pads port. Let's get to cut deck of cards. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:11): Oh, well, actually, you know, that'll be great. You can we can do a couple of fireside chats. We got shortness. -- will take Jason Calacanis (01:26:16): it on the road. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:17): Yeah. For sure. Jason Calacanis (01:26:19): Alright, everybody. Alright, boys. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:20): I love you. Sabre. Good luck, bro. Good luck to Alison. Jason Calacanis (01:26:22): Thank you, Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:23): love you, man. Oh, yeah. Jason Calacanis (01:26:25): And for the queen of Kinois, rain mandate attacks. Bye Chamath Palihapitiya (01:26:28): bye. Bye. Jason Calacanis (01:26:32): The Leggett winner's ride. Raymond David Sachs. Speaker 5 (01:26:39): And it said -- We open source it to the fans and just gone crazy weather. David Sacks (01:26:49): airwinters line. Jason Calacanis (01:26:52): Besty's our dog. That's David Friedberg (01:26:55): probably a dog Speaker 6 (01:27:02): You should all just get a room and just have one big you, George, because they're all just useless. It's like this, like, sexual tension, but they just need to release it out. David Friedberg (01:27:11): What? You're the b p What? David Sacks (01:27:13): You're a thief. Jason Calacanis (01:27:15): What what? Where did you get Merckies are back?