Theranos 与风投欺诈风险、中国禁游戏、得州心跳法案、苹果应用商店、加州山火、罗根

Jason Calacanis (00:00:00): Hold on. Let's see if we get Saxx on the line. Alright, guys. I guess Saxx is blowing it off because he's too busy with Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:08): the staff. No. Fuck We'll start without Saks. David Friedberg (00:00:10): Let's start. Jason Calacanis (00:00:11): Start without Saks. Okay. 315. 3, 2. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:16): Well, your winter's ride. Rainman, David Sachs. Speaker 4 (00:00:23): And it said, we open Jason Calacanis (00:00:32): Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the all in podcast. With us today, the queen of Kinois On Fire in California, which is also happens to be on fire, sadly. and the dictator, Chamath Palihapitiya. David Sachs will not be joining us today. He's too busy with his call it all in app. Oh, I'm sorry. It's call in. He put a c in front of it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:52): No. No. No. No. I see the orange bag. It's Callen. Callen. Callen. Calacanis Callen app, Speaker 4 (00:00:57): which is I debuted this week. Jason Calacanis (00:01:00): But Saks will be if you're a Saks stand, I think Saks is -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:05): No. We've done one show without Freeburg. Now we're doing one without Saks. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:01:07): This will be the Saks free at the It is what it is. -- free episode. Alright. So we got a lot -- I'm David Sacks (00:01:13): I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. Speaker 4 (00:01:18): Oh, good job. David Sacks (00:01:19): All too eager to take credit for call in on Twitter. So don't pretend like you're not part of this now. Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:01:24): Part of time. I'm at calling Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:26): now, though. David Friedberg (00:01:27): The island up. This guy creates Jason Calacanis (00:01:29): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:29): I hope Calacanis worth a trillion dollars. Speaker 4 (00:01:32): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:01:32): I can't believe it. This guy is complaining that I'm leveraging the pod. -- David Friedberg (00:01:35): style, like, licensing of the term all in to Saks and gotten paid, like, $7,000,000 in equity for him using our names unless we see it. David Sacks (00:01:43): I I gave you guys so many shout outs. you know, during the Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:47): whole relationship. No. He did. because I listened to his interview with Emily Chang, and I listened to his thing with Axios. with Dan Cremack and Jason Calacanis (00:01:56): -- Oh, did he? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:57): He's very David had a very good Jason Calacanis (00:02:00): -- He was magnanimous. -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:02): presentation, and then he was really magnanimous in kind. So thanks, Saxi David Sacks (00:02:05): And I and I I gave so much credit to Jay Cal. I said that if it wasn't for Jay Cal, I'd never would have done this whole podcasting thing because it was too hard. I never would have figured it out. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:12): And then you gave me a shout out because, like, of organizing it so that we could all be friends on I like that. I appreciate it. Jason Calacanis (00:02:19): Very nice. I have I actually haven't listened it. But give us a for those who don't know, david Sacks has created a podcasting slash casual audio app. It's called call in. It's available for download for iOS. just coming out of private beta. My understanding is you're at somewhere around 10,000 folks. David Sacks (00:02:37): Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of sign ups yesterday. I haven't got latest numbers yet. But but yeah. No. It's it's, you know, it's taking off. The all the reviews of it have been sort of rave reviews. People are really excited about it. Fantastic. But yeah. Look. The concept is we're combining social audio with podcasting. We call it social podcasting. You've seen these apps where people create a room. and they have these many to many conversations. They tend to be ephemeral. No one really records or saves them, and the quality of the conversation is it's a little bit chaotic. But we've taken that concept and put it in the service of creators who can now essentially, like, record their product for the life studio audience. They can bring up the we call them callers. They can bring appeal from the audience 1 by one to ask their questions. It's much more organized and structured. It's not a free for all to try and grab the mic. And then once you record the episode, you can then go into post production in the app. You can edit the transcript in order to edit the episode, and then you publish it and you can share it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:37): So -- Is it like so it's basically, like, only fans but audio. Jason Calacanis (00:03:41): Yeah. It's only fans But Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:43): for people who don't live there on Jason Calacanis (00:03:44): camera -- -- at the end or no? Oh. Speaker 4 (00:03:47): Oh. Oh. Family show. Jason Calacanis (00:03:48): Family show. Family show. Come odd. David Friedberg (00:03:50): I do. David Sacks (00:03:51): I I do when this becomes a unicorn horn. Speaker 4 (00:03:53): Oh, no. David Sacks (00:03:54): No. Clint Speaker 4 (00:03:55): is all getting collected, buddy. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:57): No. No. Delete. It's my birthday today. Jason Calacanis (00:04:00): God damn. Happy birthday, Chamath. We're going around the horn here. Everybody's patting themselves on the back. Let's all take a moment to say what we like about Jamath. Okay. Great. Let's get back to the episode. That was quick. What David Sacks (00:04:12): do you you know, I was thinking about, you know, what birthday present do I get for Chamath? And then I was like, gee, what do you get for the dictator who has everything? I don't I don't know. David Friedberg (00:04:23): What is Kim Gugli Speaker 4 (00:04:23): with me? Exactly. Ask that's Hey, guys. David Friedberg (00:04:26): Wait a second. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:27): Just just follow-up. -- NBS for his birthday? Hey. We don't Well, Speaker 4 (00:04:31): actually, I'll tell you. David Sacks (00:04:32): Yeah. If you can't Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:33): mind, very rare wine. Very rare wine. Very rare wine. David Sacks (00:04:35): Actually, there there's actually an answer to that question. Apparently, Madeline Albright, one Scott Kim Jong una a basketball signed by Michael Jordan for his birthday. So, apparently, that it yeah. Apparently, that's where you get a dictator. Jason Calacanis (00:04:48): Access. You get access to people they wouldn't normally have or a bone saw. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:52): Oof. A very, very, very old French burgundy. Ideally, white, but the white doesn't hold up as well. But, you know, if you go back and I mean, I wonder if you could drink, like, yesterday, I had the 2 The 2 fills Deutch and Muth at my house, and we had we drank 1996 Salon Claude De Maisons. No. Sorry. 1997. Salon, Claude De Maisons, and then we drank a bottle of 1996 Paul Roger Sir, Winston Churchill Champagne. Fabulous. Only champagneless. Jason Calacanis (00:05:24): It is fabulous. We could also get you some plenonium plenonium if you wanna -- No. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:28): Guys, guys, I don't need any -- -- some energy. I would like you to come and play poker next Thursday. You fuckers. And then, Joe, is just bring a bottle of bring a really nice bottle of wine or champagne. We'll drink it Jason Calacanis (00:05:38): That's fine. David Friedberg (00:05:38): Oh my god. I got cases of terrible wine. I'm gonna bring him. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:41): No. You asshole. This did did Speaker 4 (00:05:42): you hear what this fucker did? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:44): Oh my god. This fucking asshole shows up. This piece of shit showed up last week, and he's like, come out here with these fantastic bottles. And I looked at this as, like, Jason Calacanis (00:05:52): 1985 Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:53): Camus, and I'm like, Speaker 4 (00:05:54): that's not a good year. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:56): I've never ridden the right in the garbage. -- garbage. Right in the garbage. Wait. Wait. It gets better. It gets better. He has 2 bottles. And so he gives them to Joshua, and Joshua looks at them and Joshua doesn't know what to think. And he looks at me and I'm like, I'm like, just like, you know, And so Josh was like, wow, David. Thanks, Friedberg. This is incredible. I appreciate it. And then Friedberg does the fucking most brutal thing. Open it. Open it. Jason Calacanis (00:06:17): Let's just and Josh was so up they opened it and poured it on Chamonte's cherry tea. David Friedberg (00:06:21): You know what I mean? I threw it out. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:23): I threw it out. Jason Calacanis (00:06:23): It took your pride city as a guard. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:25): No. He said, where did you find this? He goes Oh, it was in my basement in the hot tempered humid fucking -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:06:31): -- David Friedberg (00:06:31): San Francisco weather for 10 years. Yeah. I had no idea. I moved, you know, I moved, like, 2 weeks ago and I went to the basement to, like, get all my boxes, and I'm like, I've got, like, hundreds of bottles of wine that I have not seen in years. And I start Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:43): going through -- -- temperature control. Jason Calacanis (00:06:45): right next to the furnace. David Friedberg (00:06:46): They weren't lying flat. I'm like, these things are all, like, they're all core. Speaker 4 (00:06:49): They're all Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:50): they're all core. David Friedberg (00:06:50): And there's, like, stuff in Jason Calacanis (00:06:51): the eighties David Friedberg (00:06:52): from the nineties. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:06:53): so many a Josh took them and poured them over the arugula salad. David Friedberg (00:06:56): He didn't wanna ruin the arugula. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:57): No. He didn't ruin the arugula. I would ruin the fucking vegetables and herbs in the garden. He basically claimed to not bring any more wine to my house. Jason Calacanis (00:07:08): Oh my god. I'm bringing wine David Friedberg (00:07:09): for your dog. If your dog's coming back with we Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:11): got -- My dogs are coming back today. Yeah. They're flying back. All I have Jason Calacanis (00:07:14): to say about that game is thank god Mister Beast has a 100,000,000 followers on YouTube. Restaurant. RIP, Mister Beast. Alright. This will -- By the way, I get what Speaker 4 (00:07:24): I'm saying. Jason Calacanis (00:07:25): -- David Friedberg (00:07:25): give a shout out Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:25): to Mister Beast. -- fucking incredible. He's a great Jason Calacanis (00:07:27): -- What a great deal. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:28): What credible entrepreneur, what a great human being. Yeah. I am I mean, for twenty three years old to be that sophisticated Jason Calacanis (00:07:36): -- -- 23? 23. This guy -- I thought he was -- This guy Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:40): this guy is clearly on track to being an enormous figure in culture. Oh, he's gonna be fucking multi multidue David Friedberg (00:07:46): in it. He is determined, hardworking, smart, kind, good people, clever -- -- ambitious. Amazing. Great. And his ideas He's creative, and he's just a good human. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:57): Mister Billy was one of the most impressive people I have met in a really, really, really long Speaker 4 (00:08:02): agree. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:02): I mean, he and I had been texting for a long time on Twitter and then and then just on text. But then to finally meet him and we had talked on the phone and we had zoomed before. I'd never met him in prison, but on an Jason Calacanis (00:08:12): incredible shoot. Why don't we have him as the bestie guestie on Speaker 4 (00:08:14): the phone? David Friedberg (00:08:15): He totally, like he totally fit with the group too. He was great. Just funny. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:19): What we should do is we should all round every be up. We should fly to to Greenville where he should surprise him. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:08:25): Yeah. Do a little game at his chair when we shot. David Friedberg (00:08:27): But now Oh, here's an idea. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:28): What we could do is Jason Calacanis (00:08:29): we could tweak Phil Hellmuth and just have a game and replace Phil in the game with him as our new bestie. Oh my god. Let's David Friedberg (00:08:36): let's replace Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:36): let's replace the mute. Replace the mute? Speaker 4 (00:08:39): with Mister Beast. Jason Calacanis (00:08:40): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:40): with Mister beasts. Jason Calacanis (00:08:41): Kind of like a better bestie in many ways. Okay. Let's -- By the way, David Friedberg (00:08:44): are we skipping next week to record at the symposium on Monday, or are we gonna do next week and then Also do Monday? Jason Calacanis (00:08:51): No. Double down. Okay. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:52): Okay. Double down. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:08:53): Let's keep let's double down. Alright. Listen. David Friedberg (00:08:55): But I mean, a lot Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:55): of shit to cover. Jason Calacanis (00:08:56): -- David Friedberg (00:08:56): good good notification. We're doing our first altogether recording of the all in pod a week from Monday. At the at the TPB symposium, no reason to -- The production board. The production board. No reason to publicize it. But I'm excited because it we're all -- It's Jason Calacanis (00:09:11): a closed event. What is the purpose of the event? David Friedberg (00:09:14): I just get together a bunch of scientists, investors, entrepreneurs, and CEOs, and it's it's a day of science talks mostly and then some business talks on the next day. we're having a really fun event the night before with poker. Our friends are all coming to play poker, and we're gonna record -- I'm Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:28): coming for the science day. I'm there for the full series. Jason Calacanis (00:09:30): -- for the science day too. I wanna learn. David Friedberg (00:09:32): So -- But the poke the poker night's gonna have poker, and and we're gonna record the all in pod live or or together in person for the first Jason Calacanis (00:09:39): time. -- time. Yeah. That should be really cool. And for those of you wondering, you know, we're going to do our own all in summit, which will be probably like a 100 we're 200 iconic classic people, and we're gonna probably do that in the first quarter or second quarter of next year post payment. -- David Sacks (00:09:57): choose a date know, my people are going crazy because you won't give them a date. Jason Calacanis (00:10:00): Well, you guys were like, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:01): we should do it in Jason Calacanis (00:10:02): -- Here we go. In Rome. Okay. So -- That's my mom. If you want to Italy Rome, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:08): Sachs wants Miami. I'm telling you guys, they're hotel -- Miami. Jason Calacanis (00:10:12): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:12): city is the sickest hotel in the world, and I'll tell you why. The people you have never seen these people. Okay. These people are amazing. Speaker 4 (00:10:20): Amazing. Tremendous people. Jason Calacanis (00:10:20): They are Greta, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:26): it attracts the hottest people. I mean, it's fucking Jason Calacanis (00:10:28): We're not doing it based on aesthetics. We're doing it on ideas, Shamosits, not just aesthetics wherever Speaker 4 (00:10:33): you are. David Sacks (00:10:33): People are gonna go to Rome. You know? Miami the good thing about Miami is we know it'll be open no matter what. Right? You know, we can't count -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:10:40): We can host our own super spreader event. fantastic. No. I mean, we're host the the code conference, Cara Swisher's conference is at the end of the month. and Skye and Brooke and I are hosting our poker again. And I was like, is there any way this conference is going to occur? And if it does occur, what happens if they're I mean, obviously, everybody's gonna be Everybody's gonna be Mac, masked. I don't know if they're gonna do testing or David Sacks (00:11:03): anything. You you think everyone should be masked at the conference? David Friedberg (00:11:07): going to be unless it's outside. Jason Calacanis (00:11:08): They're going to be because it's indoors, and there's a breakout event amongst the vaccinated, which can happen. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:11:15): Between Delta and Zetta 2, you're you're you're gonna be forced. What do you think, Zach? David Sacks (00:11:19): Well, I just think how do you effectively have a meeting with people whenever indoors, when everyone's wearing a mask. I just think that's and and, you know, I mean, there's David Friedberg (00:11:27): there's no -- -- a CPB symposium. David Sacks (00:11:29): Really? Wait. Speaker 4 (00:11:29): You went David Friedberg (00:11:30): to wear a mask? indoors. Not during the dinner and stuff. Look. I mean, I think for poker but we are testing everyone on entry all 3 days. David Sacks (00:11:38): Okay. That that that makes sense to me. Right? We do a rapid test at the door. And so but then once you've done the test and someone's negative, why would you need a once you go in. Jason Calacanis (00:11:47): Well, I don't know if they can test that code every day. David Sacks (00:11:49): The the stupidest thing is they do stuff like make you wear the mask, but then take it off for dinner. Like, what? You you can't get COVID when your mouth is full. I mean, how does that work? David Friedberg (00:11:58): It makes no sense. That's the whole David Sacks (00:11:59): It makes no sense. David Friedberg (00:11:59): Put put your mask on. Let's do risk assessment. And then take it off when you sit down three feet away. David Sacks (00:12:04): It's it's it's security theater. Jason Calacanis (00:12:06): Well, let's do let's do risk assessment. None of us would go to an indoor event if it wasn't fully vaxx. Correct? Would anybody attend an indoor event of this nature, hundreds of people if they didn't have a vax requirement? I would -- Yes. David Friedberg (00:12:19): I don't care. You would. I well, I mean, what I would care about is I wouldn't attend it if people weren't all being tested on end times. Jason Calacanis (00:12:25): Okay. Well, I'm trying to do because just on Yeah. The the vaxx David Friedberg (00:12:28): the vaxx doesn't seem to eliminate transmission Jason Calacanis (00:12:32): right now. -- to an event, you would have to be vaxxed and tested that day. morning of rapid test. Yeah. Look. David Friedberg (00:12:38): I mean, I think in general, everyone's kinda standard. It's, like, make sure of that because it reduces the likelihood of transmission, but still, like, it's not stopping transmission clearly. I'd rather what I care more about is is point of entry testing, which is what we're doing at our symposium. I just want everyone to get tested upon entry. Schomazawa, what Chamath Palihapitiya (00:12:54): would you do? Let's talk about something important. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:12:58): Alright. Listen. I think the most interesting thing going on in our industry this week is Elizabeth Holmes' trial. has begun jury selection started this week, and it's gonna cover 12 counts of fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud over false claims she made about the blood test results from Theranos. They have now selected a jury of 12 Northern California residents consisting of 7 men and 5 women. took 2 days to question around a 100 potential jurors about their answers to a 28 page questionnaire that included news outlets they read, what news out outlets they read. If they knew any witnesses and have had any negative medical experiencing experiences, And it was complicated to get these because it is it possible to not know about it? And Now it seems the interesting thing is Elizabeth Holmes, who worked on this company for 2 close to 2 decades and was involved in this fraud from start to finish is now taking the position that she was under the control of her business partner, Sunny Balwani, and that he had been abusing her and controlling her. What are your thoughts on and so he's being tried separately, by the way. They're gonna be tried in sequential order. So whenever this trial ends, then he gets to get tried. What are your thoughts on if she will be convicted and her defense strategy? David Friedberg (00:14:29): I I think this is this is, like, less about the specific evidence against her. as much as it's and it's much more right now about the whole Silicon Valley fake it before you make it. approach to entrepreneurship. And, you know, we all hear this from, you know, all the entrepreneurial kind advisors and, you know, stories of experience and stories of success that in order to kind of achieve success as an entrepreneur, you really have to oversell and promise and create an incredible narrative about where your business is headed and in many cases that gets ahead of you. Now the public, the general public that doesn't operate within Silicon Valley with as much breadth as we do, I think they hear the stories of the Adam Neumann's and WeWork and the collapse and Elizabeth Holmes and this this Trevor Milton guy and and Nicola. But there's a thousands of these other sorts smaller stories where VC rolls his eyes, where the first board meeting after raising money is, like, wait a second. We're actually gonna be half our forecast when we raise money. or the numbers are gonna be way below or the product doesn't actually work as we presented it to you. Sorry. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:36): I I don't think I've ever funded a company where that hasn't been the case. David Friedberg (00:15:39): Exactly. And so I think that's the that's the the the big question. Right? Shamalff is, like, does this trail does this trial kind of indict the way Silicon Valley operates in the storytelling models and the narrative models, there are examples of these people getting a little too far ahead of their skis and maybe you can argue they could perceive something to be nonfraudulent while other people can, you know, kind of perceive it to be fraudulent. But don't we see this kind of broadly in Silicon Valley and doesn't this kind of bring up a question on, like, are all start ups now, or is the industry gonna have a shift as a result of this trial in terms of behavior as investors and as entrepreneurs and how you tell stories, how you diligence, etcetera, etcetera. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:16): This is this is only gonna get meaningfully worse. I don't know if Elizabeth Holmes committed fraud or not. I think that you know, these folks will be able to figure that out in detail. But here's something that I do know pretty precisely, which is the amount of money that's trying to get into Silicon Valley is going exponentially up. David Friedberg (00:16:36): Yep. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:36): And as that happens, you guys now see it every day where There are firms whose entire business now is just to literally write a check every day. They're closing deals every single day. they're doing 0 diligence. And so what that's going to create is an incentive for founders, particularly those whose backs are against the wall or who's doing something that's highly speculative and hard to diligence to stretch the truth to get the capital. And it's impossible for guys like us to actually step in and do diligence on a lot of these companies even if you actually have time But then if the competitive dynamic is such that you don't even have the time because somebody else beside you is gonna rip in a check with by just meeting somebody, and, you know, quote unquote, having done the work on their own, which is impossible because they're not you you don't have access to somebody's, you know, financial books. this problem is only gonna get worse. And so I think we, as an industry, just have to realize that there's going to be an incentive to lie there's going to be an incentive to stretch the truth, and it's because of the amount of money that's available. And -- Yes. The lack of diligence that's happening. Jason Calacanis (00:17:48): Sacks, is this an example in the case of Elizabeth Holmes, of somebody being delusional as a strength? or somebody committing fraud as a crime. David Sacks (00:17:59): It's probably both. Now look. I think you guys are giving a little bit too much credence to the media narrative that Theranos is a quote, unquote Silicon Valley failure. The truth of the matter is there was no major Silicon Valley VC firm. In fact, not even a minor one that invested in Theranos as far as I know. There is no VC on the board of Theranos. We've talked about this before. It was a bunch kinda grand poobaugh types. And there was no one who actually had the technical competence to do diligence And so Elizabeth Holmes isn't so much an example of Silicon Valley as somebody who was selling Silicon Valley. she was selling the promise of Silicon Valley. She was selling the idea that this was gonna be a decacorn or a centacorn to people who are too unwitting to know. And I see you know, Tim Draper, a lot people are really hanging their hat on the fact that Tim Draper rode a seed investment to Elizabeth Holmes I you know, that that really is very different. You know, when you write a seed investment, apparently Elizabeth Holmes was like a neighbor of his. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:19:00): Your daughters were friends is my understanding. David Sacks (00:19:02): And she clearly was an impressive person, you know, she came across impressively in person. She obviously cast a pretty big reality distortion field. to a lot of, you know, smart people. So, you know, she's the type of person who you would write potentially a c check to based on, you know, a talent bet, the fact that she later chose to engage in in fraud, I don't think that's like Tim Draper's fault. And it doesn't make this like a Silicon Valley fraud. Again, you know, show us the VC firm that was hoodwinked by this. Jason Calacanis (00:19:34): But you are seeing, David, this trend of the the firms coming in and not doing diligence, not having audit rights, not having information rights, not doing proper diligence, and, basically, relying on the previous investors. David Sacks (00:19:46): Right. Jason Calacanis (00:19:47): How troubling is that? And what are you doing to protect Kraft LPs? David Sacks (00:19:51): Yeah. So so look. I think there's a big difference between going into a board meeting and finding out the projections were inflated because, like, frankly, we all take projections with a grain of salt. Right? But versus the founder lying about the past. Right? So people are always gonna put the Rosius picture. They're gonna puff up what the future's gonna look like. It is up to you as the investor to determine if that's true or not, but they cannot lie about the past. They cannot lie about what their revenue was last year what contracts they signed before you invest it. That is fraud. Right? And that is what that's where Elizabeth Holmes crossed the line. She wasn't just painting a rosy picture of, you know, what the technology would look like, you know, years from now, she was lying about their capabilities at the time people were investing. That is the one you cannot cross. Look. We conduct diligence. We, you know, try to look at weak financials. We try to make sure that the numbers are all true. You know, frankly, we're not investing in things that involve a tremendous amount of technical risk, a lot of technology risk. So we always use the product before we invest. The idea that the product would be faked, I think it would be hard to perpetrate that kind of fraud with a SaaS company. But so look. I mean, that's what we Jason Calacanis (00:21:04): look at. It's interesting you bring that up. I she dropped a link into the Zoom chat. Co founder and former CEO of Palo Alto based startup technology company, spin, charged with securities fraud and wire fraud. And this guy, Laquani, 45 from Santa Clara County basically was lying about their ARR in a SaaS company. And -- This is this is the way Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:27): much money. Jason Calacanis (00:21:27): -- bunch of money. So Right. This is an example of somebody -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:30): It can happen in every company. Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:21:31): It can happen at -- Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:21:32): Yeah. You you you you sucks. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:33): I think that I don't think you're inoculated just because you invest in SaaS. My point is If you have a person that's willing to rip in a check a Jason Calacanis (00:21:40): $100,000,000 3 Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:42): hours after meeting you asking for no diligence, At some point, David, your back is gonna be against the wall because you're gonna have to justify to your LPs why you aren't in some of these theoretically good deals Right? And some of them will become fraudulent. They'll just turn out to me. It's just the laws of distribution. Jason Calacanis (00:21:58): So it's a bit of a prisoners dilemma. You're you're saying Shamaff. Speaker 4 (00:22:01): I mean Jason Calacanis (00:22:02): -- Speaker 4 (00:22:02): Well, you Jason Calacanis (00:22:02): don't do how do you you you have to get deals done. Look. You're not against people who won't do diligence. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:07): No. No. It actually comes down to something different, which is then you have to differentiate with real brand. Meaning, if somebody really wants you on the cap table, they will absolutely slow everything down to get you Correct. So for example, like, let's let's assume, like, it's Mike Morris. I'll use up. There is nobody in the world, I think, who's not a complete Befoon Moron who wouldn't slow his process or her process down to get Mike to be on their board. Speaker 4 (00:22:34): Mhmm. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:35): And so if you're willing to basically just scuttle an entire process and just take the fastest money, I think it actually says something that there is more risk in backing somebody like you than somebody that wouldn't slow down. So or right? So then, you know, the problem is there's fewer there's fewer and fewer Mike Moritzes in the world. You know? I think Saks is one of those people. I think Peter Teal is another kind of person. You know, Bill Girley is another kind of person. So there are these people in our industry where I think that you will slow things down, and I do think allow these folks to do diligence, and I think there will be less fraud in general for that cohort. But if your platform becomes one that's just about ripping money in, and I think the late stages are roughly this, they're all all branded dependent because the money is the same. The value of the sheet are the same. David Friedberg (00:23:23): But does all of Jason Calacanis (00:23:23): a sudden -- -- Freeburg. Freeburg. David Sacks (00:23:24): Yeah. That Jason Calacanis (00:23:25): -- David Friedberg (00:23:25): Yeah. Freeburg, doesn't it introduce the risk of the retail investor. You know, we're seeing more retail participation via syndicates, you know, via, you know, one off investments, online kind of marketplaces, and also a specs where the retail investor relies on, you know, to mop some of these kind of bigger institutional or perhaps some name that gets some carried interest in an investment doing the diligence And if the activity level is going up and the dollars are flowing in and the margin of error is increasing, you know, is there not some inevitable kind of SEC backlash and consideration around how our private companies ultimately raising money and how much they are disclosing, and we kind of face this. You know? I can Regular. Right. Right. Jason Calacanis (00:24:11): Yeah. I I can address this as a syndicate lead. You know, we only take accredited investor money at this time. And so anything that happens is with, obviously, sophisticated people the top 4 percent of Americans investing in companies. And in our diligence now, we have seen a spike in what I'll call massaging or painting the picture in a way that I'm not comfortable with. And we have maybe triple the amount of time we're putting into diligence now because I really care about my reputation. And maybe 20, 30 percent of the companies we wind up after initially wanting to invest, maybe giving them an offer, getting an allocation. In recent history, 20, 30 percent were winding up backing out during the diligence process because Their revenue was not software based. There was a 100,000 in consulting revenue. For me, it's like, if you're gonna you know, make these kind of decisions early on in the company. I think it's indicative of a future fraud or future moral ethical issue. So we're we're sitting out. in a lot of cases, there are public platforms now. Republic and Seed invest, which I know are also increasing their diligence process because there's so many newcomers to the space. And I think there's a level I'll be quite frank here of entitlement amongst founders that is being let's say, encouraged unintentionally by the lack of diligence that's going on. People are not taking the process as seriously as they did 10 years ago or even 5 years ago. David Sacks (00:25:40): Well, let me yeah. Look. I I I agree. I think the the diligence you're doing is really good. And and here's where I grew with with Chamath. So we have seen this trend in our industry of the private equity money coming in in greater volumes in greater, you know, earlier and earlier and faster and faster. Right? And it started with, you know, you have these like, frankly, like, public company investors were looking at the i the value at IPO relative to the last private round, and they saw, wow. There's, like, 2, 3 x mark up here for 1 year. Those are phenomenal returns. Let's arb that by getting into the last private round. Then they look at the second the last private round, they're like, wait. There's a big return there. So they keep moving earlier and earlier to arb out that return, But to Chamas point, it's just they're applying a financial model where they're not in the diligence business. They're just and and and I think they just see, like, is a cost of doing business. Right? So, I mean, they can Jason Calacanis (00:26:33): -- Speaker 4 (00:26:33): That's Chamath Palihapitiya (00:26:33): exactly right. Jason Calacanis (00:26:34): -- David Sacks (00:26:34): the portfolio. But -- Woah. -- but the only reason they can model it out that way and have the fraud be an acceptable and predictable sort of cost of doing business is because you had these firms in our industry who actually did diligence at the seed, at the series a. Right? Jason Calacanis (00:26:51): Yes. David Sacks (00:26:51): And now and now the private equity guys, they're moving so early. They're actually even now doing the they're they're moving all the way to series a. So no one's doing the diligence. And so so so that is that is a risk, I think, because it might actually change things. And this is where bringing it back to Elizabeth Holmes. I think it's important here that there's a conviction. I think she should do time. This was clearly a a major fraud. Big time fraud. And even if she didn't directly perpetrated on Silicon Valley VCs, I think the message to the industry would be absolutely horrible if she gets away with it. And frankly, I'm a little concerned she's gonna get away with it, you know, because Well, Jason Calacanis (00:27:29): she is incredibly charismatic. John Kerry was saying on a CNBC hit that don't underestimate her charisma and ability to snow people. And this Fangali defense and she just had a baby, which you know, people don't wanna discuss because it seems like it's sexist, but she is a Shivan Gali herself who will manipulate people in the I Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:49): like the way you say that Svengali. Jason Calacanis (00:27:51): She's a Svengali. Like a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:53): I think you mean Svengali, but Svengali. I'm talking about she's Brooklyn right now. David Friedberg (00:27:58): What do you handicap her likelihood of conviction at? Speaker 4 (00:28:01): I I David Sacks (00:28:01): think it's probably like a 5050. And I think so so here's here's the thing. When she was running this company, she wanted everyone to She was Steve Jobs. She even did the media tour with the turtleneck. She wanted everyone to know that she was a jobsy and micromanager who made every decision and was responsible for the success. now that she's on trial, she wants us to believe that she wasn't calling the shots. She wasn't the person Jason Calacanis (00:28:22): in charge. -- 99% voting power in the Yeah. David Sacks (00:28:24): Look. Just yes. You know, this is sort of the the Romeo Michelle's high school reunion defense where she wants us to suddenly believe that she was sort of, like, you know, the the sort of Anjanu who didn't know anything and you know? But she might get off because she kinda looks like Lisa Cudrow. You know? Jason Calacanis (00:28:41): 3 Speaker 4 (00:28:41): reps. This is a lot of people, sir. You're not fucking doing cock, idiot. What? Here. Yeah. That is deep. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:28:47): The number David Sacks (00:28:47): of pulls there. David Friedberg (00:28:48): Based on how old you are. Olie and Michelle's wedding Lisa. Speaker 4 (00:28:52): No. She's too serious. -- Lord. David Sacks (00:28:54): She's gonna go up there and pretend to be Lisa Caudreau or something. Yeah. It's awesome. kids. Jason Calacanis (00:28:59): It's super offensive that she wants to get up there and say that she was this abused woman. I mean, for women who actually are abused for her to get up there and say she's an abused she perpetuated this 20 year. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:29:10): Hold on. Hold on. Hold David Friedberg (00:29:11): on. We don't know whether Chamath Palihapitiya (00:29:13): we don't know whether she was abused or not. And if she was, It may or may not have implicated in what she did, which we don't know whether she did because, again, thank god for the laws in America. She is presumed innocent. So let's let's all just like I think I think what David, where I agree with you is the following, which is we do need to know that, you know, investors, we all sign up for expressing the fiduciary responsibilities on behalf of our LPs or on behalf of our stakeholders. Okay? There needs to be some equivalent standard that founders are held to, and there needs to be consequences for lying. particularly about the past. Because in the future, you say, I'm just projecting. But in the past, you're right. You have to be able to rely on what's given to you. Like, look, When we do diligence in a company, we are given everything that they have. Right? We talk to their lawyers. We talk to their lawyers' lawyers in some cases. In the public markets, all of this has to be transparently published so that we can come to our own conclusion. Sometimes those conclusions are right, sometimes they're wrong, but we can at least know that they're not lying to us. The minute that it turns out that they were fudging the numbers that they gave us, you're making, you know, the best decisions you can you're assuming that it's great data, but if the data is fudged, you're fucked. And so to to the extent that she did that, then she should be punished because we need that standard. Jason Calacanis (00:30:36): she this isn't and this goes beyond money. She was switching people's results. She was saying that she was giving them a blood result on her incredible Veranos machine, and she was running it to the back and and running it on another machine. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:30:49): Is that right? And she so she was taking investors putting Jason Calacanis (00:30:53): Their blood into her machine, the Theranos machine, then taking them for coffee, running it to an Abbott machine and giving their results. I mean, this was The definition of a premeditated, deliberate, and multiyear fraud -- Oh. -- I put her at 80% likelihood of guilty and I put the over under a 32.5 months served. David Friedberg (00:31:13): Talk to me. Jason Calacanis (00:31:14): I don't know what the -- David Friedberg (00:31:15): Take the under. Jason Calacanis (00:31:16): -- taken the under of 32.5 months. -- together. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:18): I'll take the other. Speaker 4 (00:31:18): I'll take the other. Jason Calacanis (00:31:19): Serve. I've served. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:20): I'll take the under. What do you got there? David Sacks (00:31:21): Well, I I hope you're right because yeah. I mean, I I'm a little worried that she's gonna figure out a way to pull the rug over people's lives. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:28): what what are our kids gonna get in jail if we were Chinese right now, and they played video games? How many months are they gonna get? Jason Calacanis (00:31:34): Basically, I think you would you would do harder time. So moving on to our next story. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:40): The the consequences is to the Chinese Internet companies. David Friedberg (00:31:43): No. What's the consequence to the kids if they're caught on video games? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:46): No. No. You're not you're Jason Calacanis (00:31:47): -- David Friedberg (00:31:47): Oh, okay. -- companies have to turn it off. Right. Right. Jason Calacanis (00:31:50): Alright. Here we go. China bans young people from playing video games. This is for kids who are under the age of eighteen. They are now restricted from playing games on weekdays can only play for 3 hours most weekends. And these were set as a response to China's physical and mental health being affected by gaming according to Reuters. limits -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:10): I think they're doing what all American parents would want our government to do for our kids. Jason Calacanis (00:32:17): I I don't disagree with that. Gamers are now penalized if they don't obey, and the gaming companies will be as well. Gaming companies will prove they have an identification system in place, like requiring minors to use their real names. -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:29): fucking hard at this. I have I have I have 3 kids in that age age age age. I am sweating who they're texting, who they're talking to, what game they're playing, the new game they wanna download. Fuck that. This is the only thing I've ever said that would make me wanna move to China. Speaker 4 (00:32:44): This one rule Jason Calacanis (00:32:45): -- David Sacks (00:32:46): This is Jason Calacanis (00:32:47): -- -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:47): is the most incredible thing I've ever heard, and I and and and they are so smart. By the way, what's so beautiful is they they send fenton and little TikTok to us so that we get addicted to that shit. Totally. I know what I'm saying. And they're like, no. Well, you guys are gonna learn stems so that you can, you know, take over the world. It's it's brilliant. David Friedberg (00:33:03): Yeah. I I would say, like, everything about China is is a measured decision. Right? The the the the politburo, the decision makers are not sitting there randomly shooting from the hip based on intuition and saying, hey. I think we should stop video games. They seem bad for kids. There is clearly evidence and data and statistical models that are driving this decision and their objective function is improve the health, the longevity, and the economic prosperity of our society as a whole. Speaker 4 (00:33:30): I'm sorry. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:31): Did you get this statement from what do you do though? Continue, comrade. I believe you Jason Calacanis (00:33:36): gotta you gotta be right. David Friedberg (00:33:37): Continue. But I'm pointing out These guys are these these guys generally don't make decisions based on someone's kind of, like, flipping intuition. They make decisions based on what they believe to be in the better interest, and I'm not saying it's right but in the better interest of economic prosperity, one day. Jason Calacanis (00:33:51): Let's be honest. They want to win. -- this. Yeah. Speaker 4 (00:33:54): And I David Friedberg (00:33:54): think we all know it intuitively. We we can certainly read reports But in the United States, we value individual liberties above all else. And so we don't find ourselves in the circumstance. It seems foreign and scary and crazy, But, again, it's another in my opinion, it's another tool Chamath Palihapitiya (00:34:09): that try something else later. Jason Calacanis (00:34:10): -- David Friedberg (00:34:10): compete this century. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:34:12): Yes. That's true. But let's let's be clear. We we don't we don't value huge individual liberties. That's not true. That's just what we tell people, but that's not totally true. And you know David Friedberg (00:34:20): that's it. I'm gonna go there. But yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:34:22): Well, I mean, we are literally sitting here fighting there is a a group of individuals who are fighting to wear masks or not have to wear masks rather, not have to take the vaccine. And at the same time in it, I don't know if we wanna go there, We are denying a woman's -- We have to Speaker 4 (00:34:38): do it, like, June. Can I can I can I can I let's go to let's go to the day of the sex. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:34:42): David Sachs, Jason Calacanis (00:34:42): are you in support of Texas's abortion ban? No. No. We're we're we're let's just hit David Friedberg (00:34:47): him on China. David Sacks (00:34:48): No. No. I think it's a stupid law, and I'll explain why a second. But just on the the China thing for a second, this is I'll be a dissenting voice here. This is like if we had given typical tutorial powers. I mean, this is insane. They're gonna they're gonna determine how many hours a kid can play video games. I mean, look, I I I get the the potential benefit, but this is incredibly intrusive into the lives of citizens and I'm not sure that video game playing is altogether a negative thing. You know, I think it's mostly our kids go through a phase where they play a lot of games and they grow out of it. And, you know, you talk to developers, like computer programmers. They all went through some phase where they were, like, hyper addicted to video games, it, you know, builds hand eye coordination. It builds sort of you know, computer literacy. So I'm not sure it's like look. Obviously, if someone does nothing but computer games their whole life, that's a problem. But as a phase that a kid goes through. Speaker 4 (00:35:49): It's not the David Sacks (00:35:49): end of the world. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:50): I agree with you because I used to play 3 hours of fucking Zelda a day when I come home because I was a no. because I was a rash key kid. because I was a latch key kid, and I didn't have anybody to take care of me. I don't think, David, though, that that's what kids are getting when they're playing 4 hours of fucking Call of Duty every night. Jason Calacanis (00:36:06): 4 hours. These kids are playing 10 hours Speaker 4 (00:36:08): a day. Well, by by the David Sacks (00:36:10): way, I think there's I I think China has another motivation for for this band, which is they've got a lot of because of the one child policy. Right? They've got a radical misbalance of, you know, male to female ratio. They've got a lot of young males without romantic prospects in that country, basically, they have an in cell problem. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:30): In cell. Speaker 4 (00:36:30): They have a ton in cell. David Sacks (00:36:31): It's a giant in cell problem. I don't think we hear much about it. because they control the media. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of just random violence out there. And the last thing they wanna do is have these in cells playing Fortnite and Call of Duty shooting people 5 hours a night and then getting their brains wired that way. That might be playing into decision. I don't know. Mhmm. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:36:52): Well, again, you're just validating the mental health aspect. They've studied the mental health implications of these video games. David Friedberg (00:36:59): I'm not arguing for the ban. I'm arguing for the fact that China has certainly done something to indicate. They have some data that indicates why they should make decision. It may be you're right. It may be about kind of, you know, growing getting people to be more romantic and get out of the house and go get married and have kids and whatnot. But there's certainly a and and remember, their objective function is always about longevity and economic prosperity. So, you know, there's something that's making them say that we can increase economic prosperity increase longevity by doing this, and that outweighs the whatever the detrimental, social, and other effects might be And, you know, I think there's somebody to read into it. But no matter what, every big decision they make has some degree of competitive advantage for them. And, you know, those kids, if they're not playing video games, they're gonna be do some doing something else. Like, I don't know, programming computers, doing biotechnology in a lab, figuring stuff out on the Internet, writing the next cryptocurrency. I don't know. But there's gonna be some advantage that's gonna arise out of the the time and the and the productivity that's gonna be generated by And I think that's the calculus that they're undertaking here. I'm not saying it's Speaker 4 (00:38:01): very long. Jason Calacanis (00:38:02): No. No. We all agree. They're thoughtful. The question is, what is this gonna do for this generation if they don't play video games. Now are they gonna be more productive? Are they gonna be, you know -- David Sacks (00:38:12): They'll they'll they'll be they'll be good drones for the the collective. You know? David Friedberg (00:38:16): It's against right. David Sacks (00:38:17): Exactly. You're right. Speaker 4 (00:38:18): You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. You're right. David Friedberg (00:38:19): You're right. You're right. David Sacks (00:38:20): You're right. You're right. And and and that's that's the downside here is even if they get it right in this particular case? How much freedom do you have to give up? How much state surveilances are in the enforcement? And how many other insane policies will they foist on people this mentality of you don't get to live your life individually. You gotta Jason Calacanis (00:38:37): serve -- This is actually, I think, your best point, sex, is that I think what could happen here is you can overplay a hand. And by squeezing people too tightly, you can't play video games, You can't run your own companies. You're gonna get replaced. You know, you can't practice your own religion. You you can't say what you want, be a journalist. These things could add up, and and they could, you know, piss off a a young group of people who do what happened in Tiananmen Square or in Hong Kong, and they could be dealing with you know, their own revolution. And what if it's video games? Revolutions have started over similarly seemingly simple acts by an authoritarian government, taking away people's right to sell fruit on the street, you know, famously started the spring awakening in the Middle East. So you you you could see this, actually, I think, you know, maybe it's a small chance, 5% or 10%, you know, creating a lot of social unrest. David Sacks (00:39:33): Do you wanna alright. Should we go to Texas? You guys wanna talk about that? David Friedberg (00:39:36): I mean -- Speaking of social unrest. Jason Calacanis (00:39:38): I'm gonna lose my mind here. Alright. Here we go. s b 8 creates a private cause of action that enables Texans to sue. Those who perform or aid and a bat, the performance of abortions after a fetal heartbeat has been detected. The band comes 2 years after abortion restrictions were proposed in Georgia, Mississippi, Kentucky and Louisiana. The previous propositions were spoken out publicly against by Progressive Tech Companies companies with a FEMA customer base who only had businesses. That proposed bill never became law. Saks, you wanna just frame for us the the legal sort of case here. David Sacks (00:40:13): Yeah. Jason Calacanis (00:40:13): Let's go to -- Look. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:40:14): Do you wanna do you wanna go back and actually frame Roe V Wade and and plan parenthood versus Casey? I think those are important to understand what the hell is going on here. David Sacks (00:40:23): Sure. Okay. Well so, you know, Roe obviously gave women the the right to choose, you know, the reproductive freedom over, you know, invalidated abortion laws very, very in a very, very sweeping way. KC sort of modified row. It upheld it, but modified it, saying that the state could impose some restrictions as well as it didn't place an undue burden. That was a key term undue burden on a woman's right to to choose. And I think what was that issue in that case was I think it was Pennsylvania. The state of Pennsylvania imposed a waiting period and some consultation with an adviser, and so it delayed. the abortion, but it didn't restrict it didn't otherwise eliminate. And then yeah. Well but so so so so Casey Casey Row as modified by Casey is really the is really the law of the land right now, which is the undue burden. Then Texas comes along. And do you want me to explain this law? Yeah. So this law is regardless of what you think about abortion, it's a really bizarre law because what it does is It doesn't just ban. It it doesn't ban abortion outright. What it does is create a private right of action. Basically, a right to sue. In civil court, anyone who aids in abets an abortion after about 5 or 6 weeks. So -- 6 weeks. Jason Calacanis (00:41:46): 6 David Sacks (00:41:47): weeks. Basically, after a fetal heartbeat can be detected. So which is about 6 weeks into the pregnancy. And the way the the law works is that Okay. So point 1, abortion providers are prohibited from performing abortion if they can detect fetal heart tones. Again, that's 6 weeks. There's no exception for rape and incest. I think that's really explosive politically. Jason Calacanis (00:42:09): And horrible? Do you think it's horrible as a human? David Sacks (00:42:11): Yeah. I think it's it's your Jason Calacanis (00:42:12): personal position. David Sacks (00:42:13): Yeah. Well, let let's get that. Let me just explain the the law. So the the the law puts the onus of enforcement on private citizens, not government officials. Okay? They do that to avoid to make it harder to legally challenge this under Roe and Casey. Okay? So what the what the government has done here, what Texas has done is It gives private citizens the ability to sue abortion providers or anyone who aids in a bet someone to to get an abortion. So it could be an Uber driver. It could be a friend who simply drives someone to the abortion clinic. It could be a person who provides financial assistance. It could be a secretary who works at the abortion clinic, they can all be sued now under aiding and abetting. And here's here's really the the the the the person who had the abortion cannot be sued, but but anyone who aided and abetted can be. That's how they're getting around the the right to choose. And here's the craziest part is the citizens who choose to sue don't need to show any connection to the person they're suing, and they don't even have to live in the state. Right? So there's no connection to them. There's no personal injury to them, but they're basically suing under a personal injury under a civil right of action. And if they succeed, The law states that they're entitled to at least Jason Calacanis (00:43:22): $10,000 David Sacks (00:43:24): in damages in addition to their legal costs. So if they win, Their legal guests got legal costs get paid, but if they lose, they don't have to cover the defendant's legal fees. So they just get a free shot here which is also I've never seen a loser pay rule like this. I mean, there are loser pay rules, but they're symmetric. So we haven't asymmetric loser pays rule. But I don't think we've ever had a civil law like this where where somebody can sue where there's no injury to them. There's no standing here. This is the thing that fundamentally, I think, at odds with our entire legal tradition. And I think regardless of what you think about abortion, this law will eventually be invalidated by the supreme court or a lower court on that ground that they're allowing people to sue without standing. And and it's a horrible precedent because can you imagine if with with the What Texas is basically doing is deputizing private citizens to enforce and civil courts a prohibition that they cannot or will not pass directly. Jason Calacanis (00:44:27): Is this the best they could come out in your Chamath Palihapitiya (00:44:29): hold on. Let let's let's just state a couple more facts. Like, This was an extremely well thought out law. I think that they the the pro life faction in Texas clearly had some very smart constitutional thinkers that were able to navigate around Roe V Wade and plan parenthood versus Casey to get something written that could be passed in a way where San Melito just basically punted and said we're not gonna give a stay. And so this is gonna have to Meander through the course, there is still a risk that it could just get kicked down to Texas and it could remain a state issue, which there is a big risk. And if that's true, then other states could basically take a run at copying this this law. What I what I wanted to talk about was if you bring it all together, you know, Friedberg said something about, like, you know, we really value personal Friedberg. And this is where I was, like, cynically, like, actually, that's not true. This is an example in my in my opinion of where this is just like we are very hypocritical where if we talk about a vaccine mandate you know, there's just an entire fiery, you know, up in arms of people usually typically in the same states that are very anti abortion that are like, you know, you know, tread on me lightly. You can't touch my body. You know, I have the right to decide. But when it comes to this topic, They abandon all of that and they go to the extreme opposite side which is the government mandates. And to be able to say that to 50% of the population, that just because you are born with reproductive organs that you're treated different or and specifically, you know, a uterus ovaries in a vagina, you're treated differently than a man. To me just seems absolutely insane and just, like, fundamentally, just erodes this idea of equality, like, at a just a very principled level. And the even worse thing is that then, you know, the corporations that actually used to be on the front lines of helping to drive social justice so far have been completely absent. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:24): Right? You have to remember in 2019 when we had these very repressive abortion laws I think it was in Mississippi or Alabama. You had all of these companies come out and say, hey. No. Not here. Not under our watch. Then when you had all these voter suppression laws, in Georgia. Right? You had all these companies come out and say, hey. Absolutely not not on our watch. We will leave the state if you implement these things. But so far, what you've seen in this law is complete radio silence in Texas. And this is you know, you have to remember Texas is the 9th largest economy in the world. Right? In the world. So you have every single kind of company from technology to otherwise who chosen to either start or relocate their businesses in the state. And I gotta think that, you know, these employees and these leaders of these businesses should be saying something and they haven't said a damn thing. David Sacks (00:47:16): But Jason Calacanis (00:47:18): Friedberg, you have thoughts? And then we'll go to you, Saks. David Friedberg (00:47:22): Look. I feel like everyone has a limit to what they believe defines individual liberty. You know, should everyone have complete freedom to the point that they can take a gun and go shoot anyone that they want? The answer is no. I think even the most diehard libertarians would argue that there's some degree of, what is it, John Stewart Mills Sex, you know, you should have the ability to do whatever you want within of influence as long as it doesn't intersect with the sphere of influence of others. And so the philosophical argument that I believe the pro life movement may which is really a a different point of view and values is that the sphere of influence of a fetus exists at some point in time and therefore, it shouldn't be invaded by the by the by the mother. Now I'm not speaking, obviously, my point of view, my point of view is extremely pro choice. just to be very clear. But the argument is it's I think one that we we all kind of blush over and assume that it's about taking away a woman's right without recognizing the voice on the other side, which says that there is a a right to to life by a few that's at a certain point in time. And so to me, there there's almost like this principle debate that arises, and it probably certainly falls more along religious lines than it does along on a religious spectrum than it does on a kind of a libertarian spectrum or a spectrum of liberties that that kind of defines that that crossover point for people But clearly, Texas is a really interestingly confused state. Right? There's this argument about individual freedom, but now what comes a is a highly kind of conservative point of view with respect to the freedom of a of a pregnant woman. And so, you know, I I don't know if there really is easy answer. It certainly seems to me nowadays that the pro choice movement is the majority, the the pro life movement is the minority, and maybe I'm off on that sack. You probably know better. David Friedberg (00:49:19): But, you know, I'm not sure this truly does set a precedent that becomes kind of a widespread recognition of a new way of addressing the pro life movement or giving the pro life movement some additional movement. I still think that the pro life movement remains a minority. And and and over time, that that will you know, there'll be perturbations, but there'll certainly be some resolution over time in favor of what Chamath Palihapitiya (00:49:40): I've been doing. -- politically correct people. Where are they? Where are they right We're all the I mean, like, I guess they they were happy to get Mike Richards or whatever the guy's name was fired from jeopardy last week. But where are they now when we really need them? David Sacks (00:49:53): But but, Jamantha, you're really saying there's not enough outrage about this. I mean, I'm seeing a ton of outrage on social media about this. David Friedberg (00:49:58): I see everything I see nothing see Chamath Palihapitiya (00:50:00): a lot of useless virtue signaling. I don't see anything that's actually -- Well, I Jason Calacanis (00:50:03): think what we're talking about here is the leadership of companies and leaders in -- My my prediction. -- companies where pretty sure David Friedberg (00:50:08): it's gonna be a million person March within 45 days. David Sacks (00:50:11): Okay. Well, let me can I let me go back to Shamaz's point about whether, you know, he called this this this bill's smart in the sense that it was really thought through. I agree that it's a deliberate attempt to circumvent Roe v weighted and heart make it harder to sustainable legal challenge against it. But I don't think this is smart. I think it's stupid, philosophically, politically, and legally for the even for the pro life movement. So philosophically, I think the problem here is they're creating unlimited standing to sue across state boundaries by somebody who hasn't even experienced harm. I mean, this is so far from what conservative Jurists and legal scholars have always professed to believe. I mean, I remember 20 years ago, tort reform and ending frivolous lawsuits was the absolute bedrock plank on the, you know, of the Republican party. So they're they're just throwing that out the window here with unknown consequences for hold on a second. For example, why wouldn't this be used to circumvent people's second amendment rights? Why wouldn't you just create a private right of action to sue anyone who couldn't, you know, aid and abetted a gun crime. You know? So I I I I think this is gonna boomerang. on conservative. 2nd Jason Calacanis (00:51:23): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:51:23): Here's when I David Friedberg (00:51:24): wait. Okay. Speaker 4 (00:51:25): Wait. Wait. David Sacks (00:51:25): Let me let me get to the political stupidity of it, and then Jason Calacanis (00:51:28): there's -- -- bellcaster wanted. This is one piece, so we didn't have much editing to my -- No. David Sacks (00:51:32): Look. -- quick finish. No. Look. Pull pull the the The Wall Street Journal has a great editorial today. Okay. This is the Wall Street Journal editorial page is a great piece. This is from they basically say, look. They said, sometimes we wonder if Texas is a journey attorney general and Paxton is a progressive plant. That's the guy behind this. His ill conceived legal attack against Obamacare backed fire Republicans in last year's election and loss at the Supreme Court. Now he is leading with his chin on abortion. How about thinking first? So they're pretty clear this is gonna get overturned. And frankly, then politically, this is just handed this is you know, Democrats are already having a field day with this. So Biden said, This law is so extreme and does not even allow for exceptions in the case of rape and incest. I mean, look, he's right about that. And Gavin Newsom, the polling for him, is now going through the roof because All he has to do for the next 10 days is talk about right to choose in this Texas bill, and he's gonna cruise towards defeating the recall. because it's based Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:30): on -- You're talk you're talking about something differently than I was what I what I'm saying is something very specific. If you go back to Roe V Wade, it was written by a man, first of all, which you know, we can debate whether that makes any fucking sense. But Harry Blackman went to the Mayo Clinic and lived there for, like, 6 or 8 weeks reading medical textbooks and came up with this trimester framework. And, again, let me just gonna go out on a limb and say, I don't have a fucking clue what's going on in a woman's body. And I don't think Harry Blackman did even though he was much smarter than I and was on the Supreme Court. Okay? And then Casey tried to clean this up by going to this fetal viability thing. So we we have this law that was really kind of ill conceived but was kind of going in the right direction, but it was really a very first form of judicial activism. We tried to clean it up in the early nineties, but it's always been an issue where eventually what's really been happening is we've been pushing this to the state's right issue. And I think that the cleverness of this bill and it's dangerous, but it was very well fought out. This was not a random thing where 2 haphazard dipshits got together and wrote this bill, David. I think that this was methodically planned out for years And I think that Jason Calacanis (00:53:39): -- -- David Sacks (00:53:39): ships, though. It's totally gonna backfire on them. It's not gonna it's it's gonna Jason Calacanis (00:53:43): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (00:53:43): Let let let let for example, we now have an activist Supreme Court who may actually not opine on this on the validity of the issue but say this is a state's right issue. If this stays in Texas and doesn't get outside of Texas, you will have this specific thing hold and stand. And I think that that's a very bad precedent to upset. I think that these folks planned this out And I don't think they thought that it was an easy way to overturn it. And I think that's why when everybody was waiting with bated breath for Alito to basically stay this, he didn't. David Sacks (00:54:17): Listen, I think there there's a lot of hysteria and hyperbole on social media right now saying that Roe V Wade's been overturned. The Stream Court is overturned. Speaker 4 (00:54:23): I'm not Chamath Palihapitiya (00:54:24): saying that Yeah. David Sacks (00:54:25): I I get Chamath Palihapitiya (00:54:25): it. -- who don't know anything. Yes. I I David Sacks (00:54:28): I I I but but but they're saying that because the Supreme Court ruled on very narrow procedural grounds that it wasn't ready to hear, about the Texas law because a harm hasn't been committed yet. But they haven't said they won't look at it in the future. I believe they will. I believe that this law will be found unconstitutional. Not necessarily Do Jason Calacanis (00:54:46): you think these companies? David Sacks (00:54:48): Not not necessarily because of abortion, but just causes Jason Calacanis (00:54:50): -- David Sacks (00:54:50): I know. I don't think there's an Chamath Palihapitiya (00:54:52): abortion issue. Jason Calacanis (00:54:52): -- David Sacks (00:54:53): the legal definition of standing in a way that flies against everything we know about how the court system works. I just I I I I think, ultimately, this is too clever by half by the by the state attorney general. I think it was Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:07): don't think I I think he's a he's a he's a tool. Alright. Jason Calacanis (00:55:10): Do we wanna move on and talk about Apple allowing people to link to their own websites. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:16): The the Apple thing is really big news because it it kinda goes to show you that you had you had a pretty progressive legislative framework in South Korea, I don't think it's particularly a huge market for Apple because most of the most of the app activity, I think, is Android more than it is Apple. But they basically just seeded the market and by deciding to basically conform to this law, then then they started with these reader apps and allowing payments along the illegal. I mean, it's the beginning of the beginning for, you know, the app stores to be deconstructed and opened. Jason Calacanis (00:55:49): This just so people understand, Apple said it would allow media apps to create in app links to sign up pages on those company's websites allowing the likes of Spotify and Netflix to bypass the iPhone makers' cut of subscriptions. Now, of course, you can use Spotify and Netflix on your phone, but you may have probably people haven't experienced this because they've already become members of it and did it on their site, but you can't actually pay through your phone. And you can't sign up through the app. They're not they were technically not allowed to link to it. So this is a small small concession only to media folks. So what do you think, Saks? David Sacks (00:56:27): Well, I think Shamalff has kinda said this at the beginning of the end. I think there's some truths to that. Look. I think The the the the root of this is the fact that Apple has this 30% rate on any in app purchases. And like Bill Gurley said, it's a rake too far. Right? Just because you can't charge 30%, doesn't mean you should charge 30%. Ultimately, this is why the whole ecosystem has been up in arms. They formed an industry coalition. To challenge Apple, that resulted in a lot of legal challenges. lawsuits. And, you know, a lot of these companies like Spotify And Tile, they testified against Apple in hearings. So I think this 30% rate has ultimately backfired on Apple. It's created a huge backlash, and now they're paying the price. They've already had to roll it back. for these so called reader apps. So, you know, if what you're doing is buying a subscription to say Netflix, Netflix will now be able to redirect you to the website. You can buy it there. and then consume the content, you know, on your iOS app without Apple getting a, you know, part of the split. But This now opens the door for this type of thing to apply to to games as well, where there's a lot more in app purchases, like like Fortnite. Right? So I I just think this is a case where, you know, what's the old line that pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered? Apple has been a hog and and now it's getting slaughtered. David Friedberg (00:57:54): Yeah. Alright. By the way, I wanna point out like this is a really interesting experience of the free market you know, clearly consumers and the developers on the apps in the App Store ecosystem were vocal and angry enough that that that this behavioral change from Apple, the structural change kinda came to bear, didn't require regulatory intervention. I just wanna point out how important and relevant that is that Having the market is functional. The market is functional. And having the government and regulators come in and, you know, people complaining to the senate about Google and Apple and monopolizing them out of their businesses ultimately gets resolved when enough there's enough kind of collective mass from the consumer slash partner that says to the the the the big incumbent player, we're not gonna play by these games anymore, by these rules anymore. Jason Calacanis (00:58:44): I gotta think Linicon being appointed did make Apple think maybe we should stop. Maybe we should David Friedberg (00:58:51): get enough fear here, right, to kind of to to kind of get -- Start Jason Calacanis (00:58:54): giving concessions. Right? Some modest concession that, yeah, if you're a Spotify or a Netflix or Audible, we're gonna let you buy through the app. David Friedberg (00:59:03): I mean, Do you wanna live Jason Calacanis (00:59:04): -- -- David Friedberg (00:59:04): regulation in in the least in antitrust -- Well, Jason Calacanis (00:59:08): yeah. David Friedberg (00:59:09): Don't you think this is a nice win for the free market? David Sacks (00:59:12): Yeah. I do. Well, look, I I don't think men monopolies are I I I don't think letting monopolies do whatever they want as free market. Okay? I mean, the monopolies and competition, they will squash innovation. They will, you know, they will basically get in the way of permissionless innovation. So I you know, I'm in favor of reading in these monopolies. And the two big issues, I think, with Apple and Google. Well, Apple especially is number 1, side loading of apps. So the idea that they have total control over what app what apps get loaded onto your iOS device people want the ability to create alternative app stores that already exists for Android. Right? So I think that is coming for Apple. Apple claims it's a security issue, but Jason Calacanis (00:59:57): It is. I mean, what they should do is if you click on low side load apps, should just give you a warning. You are no longer protected by us. You know, you're -- Right. -- you're subjecting yourself to phishing scams, your information. David Sacks (01:00:10): And -- Right. Jason Calacanis (01:00:10): buyer, beware, and then people can make their own decision. I've always thought that would be the best decision for what I like about this is, I think this gives Apple the ability to now just compete against everybody in the App Store without having to have this you know, we're we're partners with you. They are not partners with people in the app store. They watch the app store, and when something great comes and emerges, they will copy it. They just do it slower than Facebook. So Apple Music studied Spotify, and they created their own Apple product. Apple TV Plus now with Ted Lasso is competing against Netflix. They watch Netflix. And I signed up for Apple Arcade for my my daughters because I didn't want them to be paying for, like, your in app purchases, I'd rather just have the games be stop upselling them, and that's been wonderful for 5 or 10 bucks a month to have that. And I pay for the news product. So Now they can just compete against everybody directly. I think all of these media companies are gonna be video games, podcasts, TV shows and music. So I don't know if you saw Netflix is gonna be doing podcasts about their shows and video games. I think Amazon will be video game content, it's all gonna be one thing, and Disney Plus will have games built into Disney Plus like that in that subscription price. So the consumer's gonna win ultimately. David Friedberg (01:01:26): You know, I I think monopolies are good because monopolies are just, like, lazy, and it's easier to innovate and compete against a monopoly to be on than it is to compete against cronyism. When there's kind of embedded kinda government regulation that prevents emerging competitors from competing effectively. It's a lot harder to win than against some slow, big, un innovative monopoly. And -- Well Jason Calacanis (01:01:55): -- David Friedberg (01:01:56): Yeah. Go ahead. David Sacks (01:01:57): Well, here's here's the the counterargument. So so I I agree with you that that big slow lumbering monopolies can be great to compete against. But here's the problem. When they could pull access to an ecosystem when they're gatekeepers Jason Calacanis (01:02:08): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:02:08): Mhmm. Jason Calacanis (01:02:08): -- David Sacks (01:02:08): that's the problem. Because now you have to go to them And they're gonna be slow lumbering and stupid in terms of of allowing you to innovate. And when they see you becoming a threat, they'll squawk you. That's the problem. If these guys didn't control platforms, that would be one thing. But they control the most important platform there is, which is the operating system. So I I just think that, you know, this is Microsoft and Windows all over again, except there's Jason Calacanis (01:02:31): 2 David Sacks (01:02:31): of them. Right? There's iOS and Jason Calacanis (01:02:32): and Android. In Microsoft, example, you could load whatever soft you wanted. They were just bundling. They weren't saying you couldn't load net Netscape. They're just saying we're gonna give you Internet Explorer with the operating system. So this is even worse. I mean -- Right. -- Apple said, you can't even install your app. David Sacks (01:02:49): Yeah. Microsoft was actually pretty open by comparison. But but there there is, like, a version of bundling here. Spotify said is, look, when we have to pay 30%, and Apple Music doesn't have to pay anything, we can't compete with that. You know? And they have a point there. Jason Calacanis (01:03:04): Yeah. It's a it's a complete valid point. California's on fire. This is what? The 3rd or 4th year in a row. This has gotten acute for the Bay Area. People are now making plans as Friedberg mentioned on the last part, I think, that there's or 2 pods ago, there was, like, 2 or 3 weeks of the year, maybe even a month where you just can't really be outside in -- David Friedberg (01:03:25): Do stuff. Jason Calacanis (01:03:26): -- Northern California. You can't -- I hope you can't -- -- can't be outside. David Friedberg (01:03:28): Have you ever seen friends? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:03:29): Yeah. 3 of the 3 of our friends have been evacuated Because, you know, they they moved up there in the middle of the pandemic. They had to come down. They said it was raining ash. You know, one of our friends' homes is is literally threatened. It's it's it's just like and then the fire season is moving up earlier and earlier in the year. You know, my kids were in Campin Tahoe this this July, and they had to be evacuated. And fortunately, for us, you know, we had a really good friend of ours and neighbor here. whose whose kids were also at that can't be able to drive up in the but my god. Like, that was David Friedberg (01:04:04): You know, there's there's about -- What Chamath Palihapitiya (01:04:05): what's going on? David Friedberg (01:04:06): There's about $8,000,000,000,000 of real estate value in California. And, you know, if you assume a tenth of that is exposed in the middle of this kind of dense fire, these dead fire regions. Let's say it's a let's say it's a Jason Calacanis (01:04:21): $1,000,000,000,000. David Friedberg (01:04:22): But the $1,000,000,000,000 of real estate value, but you cannot insure anymore. So I Jason Calacanis (01:04:26): had an idea about this free bug. I I was looking 2 or 3 years ago when this fire started, maybe it was 4 or 5 years ago now, for a blanket that could go over a home could be installed or dropped over a home with helicopters. I know this sounds crazy, but is there a material that's light enough that you could put it on a helicopter and drop it over one of these -- Speaker 4 (01:04:45): Yeah. David Friedberg (01:04:45): That that doesn't work. Jason Calacanis (01:04:47): Yeah. Well, why does this start up exist? I mean, this would be amazing. Imagine if these homes had on the roof some sort of a system that when fire or heat got there, it just deployed the blanket and protected the home. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:04:57): Like, I don't know David Friedberg (01:04:57): if you guys know this, but right now, in Marin County in California, it's nearly impossible to get fire insurance. And this is becoming kind of a predominant factor in California, particularly in all the areas of lots of of forest land. There's a 100 million acres of forest land in California. So if a $1,000,000,000,000 of real estate is actually exposed to fires and you can't get fire insurance, ask yourselves the question What's gonna happen when 100 of Jason Calacanis (01:05:22): 1,000,000,000 David Friedberg (01:05:22): of dollars of real estate literally goes up in smoke or or gets sold off? who ultimately bears the cost? Where does that cost have its economic flow? And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the effect that may arise as these things start to take hold. know, we had this huge upswing in real estate in Tahoe as everyone moved out of California and went to Tahoe during the pandemic. Now we're seeing Tahoe real estate sell off like Brachy, this happened in wine country in Sonoma and Napa County last year after the big fires they had there. And so there are counties where you start to have these massive fires causing this massive real estate sell off and or the real estate burns and it's uninsured. And guess what happens? FEMA steps in. Right? The federal government steps in, and, ultimately, the federal government's gonna have these, like, Katrina events four or 5 times a year that we're gonna be underwriting losses for people's real estate that's valued in a way that doesn't account for the effect of climate change. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:06:11): know, I started that Jason Calacanis (01:06:12): -- -- David Friedberg (01:06:12): shift in economic value that we're gonna someone's gonna have to pay for over the next decade. And this is just the the the beginning of it all is my is my strong belief. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:06:20): I I I tweeted this out about maybe 6 or 7 months ago, but with another with this fabulous entrepreneur named David Soloff, I cofounded an insurance company. called OTT risk. And, you know, we've been trying to build models and price this kind of insurance, climate insurance, you know, social media kinds of, like, disruptions civil unrest insurance, things that are very typical atypical. Sorry. And to your point, Friedberg, it is really, really hard try to forecast what's going on in a way where you can actually ensure these things with a margin of safety. And so just as the as a person who would be the provider of this kind of insurance, what I'm telling You know, what I'm learning is, man, these and we're negotiating multi $100,000,000 policies with these big corporates And, you know, for example, like, you know, they want a pandemic insurance. If there's the next delta variant or whatever and I have to shut down my facility and here's my economic loss, I wanna you know, you to ensure that. And okay. It's impossible. And so I can only imagine what it's like then and the ground floor somebody to just buy some insurance that says if my house burns down, it's David Friedberg (01:07:31): it's very hard. So so -- And this Chamath Palihapitiya (01:07:32): kind of parametric insurance doesn't exist. which means that if you live in any of these areas, like, I basically I think what it means is that climate change is gonna ravage suburbs. And it's gonna ravage these sort of, like, far flung communities because nobody's gonna step in there and ensure the parametric risk that allows people to live there safely. No. David Friedberg (01:07:53): No. No. Just realizing my my last company. Right? Climate Corp, we were what we started in Jason Calacanis (01:07:57): 2006. David Friedberg (01:07:58): We offered parametric weather insurance online. so it was all about our our mission was to manage and adapt the climate change. And so you could buy weather insurance online, and and you underwrite the risk. And the way you underwrite risk like this and and auto insurance and any kind of insurance. If you look at past data, you build a statistical model that's represented by the past data and the frequency of certain things happening, and that's how you price the insurance. The problem now is the past data has absolutely no bearing on what's going on. Speaker 4 (01:08:22): Yeah. David Friedberg (01:08:22): And so you have to basically create more fundamental deterministic models of fires, which is something no one's really good at. No one has any ability to do because we've never seen this kind of environment before. We've never seen hot year after hot year, drier after drier. And so there's no historical data to draw from to build the model. So all the insurers throw their hands in the air, And it's we can't take on that risk. We don't know how to price it. Jason Calacanis (01:08:46): And when they David Friedberg (01:08:46): don't do that, I'm telling you the government's gonna end up having to step in and pay people money For the lost Jason Calacanis (01:08:51): homes -- Or the government's gonna have to say you the reality here is that we can't afford to do this, and you can't build homes there. And What's talk about functioning markets. I think what we're realizing is the market now is so convinced that global warming is real, and you can't deny it? that we just can't ensure for it. Therefore, we're gonna have to make serious societal changes, and that's part of this process. Insurance being denied for hurricane zones and insurance being denied for fire zones is part of the process of people accepting the reality that we're not doing enough. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:09:27): Yeah. Jacob, the the problem is not that it's gonna be denied. It's that you're not gonna be able to get it. And if you are, you're not gonna be able to afford it. And so so it's not even that people are really open to writing the kind of cover that allows you to go and safely live in Lake Tahoe 10 or 15 years from now. And that's the shame of it. So we have these beautiful places that I think are just going to be under duress and under pressure. And it's going to force everybody to live more and more in the major metropolitan areas, which is you know, I'm not sure that's that's what everybody wants. Speaker 4 (01:09:55): Or Jason Calacanis (01:09:55): it's gonna change building. I mean, you the we saw it now in Florida and other places, you know, Louisiana, other places that are flood zones, nobody builds on the ground floor anymore. Everybody builds, you know, on Stelts, and they put a a car garage underneath it. because it's gonna flooded. I have friends in New York this week, and I'm here in in I had to change my flight to come to New York for the wedding that I'm going to. I had to change my flight because last night, we were gonna be flying into this craziness here. They got 3 inches of rain in 1 hour. 15 people, my understanding, has died in basement apartments because they couldn't or they didn't get out in time. It's kinda hard to understand, but I guess people stayed in their apartments while they were filling up with water and then -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:10:34): Did you see the did you see the video of, like, the the floodwaters ripping into the New York subway? David Friedberg (01:10:40): Yeah. It's crazy. Oh my god. I'm insane. Jason Calacanis (01:10:42): New York is not built for this. So now New York's gonna just basically have to say, you know what? all the basement apartments, all the basements that exist, they're not livable. You can't live in a basement anymore. And when we build new structures, the first is gonna be built like they build them in Miami, which is for water to flow straight through them. And the garages underneath are designed to accept Massive floodwaters. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:11:02): I've been spending a lot of time on water recently. And the the thing that I learned this week, which I I not the thing that I learned, but a great way to summarize this for folks listening if they don't understand climate changes. The areas that are hotter get hotter, the areas that are drier, get drier, and the areas that get wetter get much more wet. And so when you have a period of dryness or heat, it's gonna be extreme. And when it rains, it's gonna be so stream, and we're just gonna get buffeted back and forth between these two extremes. And this is only gonna escalate over the next 20 years or 30 years because we have so much embedded pollution that we have to work our way through. Forget all the new stuff, but all this embedded pollution has a cost and we're just starting to begin processing that pollution. Jason Calacanis (01:11:44): Well, welcome to the all in depressed episode. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:11:49): I mean, fucking depressive. What wait. This is my goddamn birthday, guys. What the fuck Happy birthday. The -- Yeah. We really do. Jason Calacanis (01:11:55): Happy birthday. Women's rights are being taken away. Planet is on fire. New York is underwater. COVID is not ending. Nobody can sure insure anything. And yeah. David Friedberg (01:12:06): I don't know, man. The market's ripping. There's lots of money coming into climate change. investors and entrepreneurs are more optimistic than they've ever been. You know, there's a backdrop of challenge, but what challenge comes opportunity and I think people are doing it, like, nuts right now, and it's pretty exciting. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:12:21): No. If I like the way you say entrepreneurs because I say it entrepreneurs, but you say it entrepreneurs, and yours. David Friedberg (01:12:26): It's got an e and a u tomorrow. I Chamath Palihapitiya (01:12:28): mean, entrepreneurial vibe. Jason Calacanis (01:12:30): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:12:30): very it's a very literal pronunciation of it that -- You don't like Jason Calacanis (01:12:33): -- David Sacks (01:12:34): Yeah. Look. I I I think Jason Calacanis (01:12:35): -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:12:35): Sharon, you're really Shenghali of the word. Schhenghali here. David Friedberg (01:12:39): Schhenghali. The David Sacks (01:12:40): the the -- Are you David Friedberg (01:12:41): gonna monetize something now, Sucks? Speaker 4 (01:12:43): I got Sachs, monetize your new app. Monitize call in. Jason Calacanis (01:12:46): Yeah. Leverage the all in, Roddie. David Sacks (01:12:48): Yeah. That's that's the good news here. Colin's doing really well. Great long. No. Speaker 4 (01:12:51): I'm gonna be right away. Time is up fire. The great the jewel David Sacks (01:12:55): of Kelsey. Speaker 4 (01:12:56): Look. Yeah. Could it be under that out of Moodle County? got 10,000 downloads. David Sacks (01:13:00): I I look. I think I think that in in terms of processing all the the bad news, I I do think we tend to have a tendency to underestimate how much political partisans sort of whip things up. In any event, Julie end with this Rogan thing? I actually think it's a pretty good issue to talk about. Jason Calacanis (01:13:18): Joe Rogan got COVID. He was I think they missed framed what he said. I actually saw the original quote where he said, should a young person take the vaccine? This was in the very early days of the vaccine, or should they wait a little bit and see if it's safe I think was his position. Not one I agree with, but I don't think what he said was absolutely crazy. His quote was if someone has an ideological, physiological reason for not getting vaccinated. I don't wanna force him to get vaccinated. So and then he got it. and he had to cancel some shows. David Sacks (01:13:49): I I think there's something kinda funny here, but also kinda serious here about the the way the media covers news like this. First of all -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (01:13:56): -- David Sacks (01:13:56): the media is positively gleeful whenever they can report that somebody who express any vaccine has sincere skepticism gets COVID. Right? It's almost gulish, I think. Look. I I'm vaccinated. I'm really happy. I got the vaccine. I think it gave me it helped me have a much, much milder case of COVID than either was what I had. So I'm pro vaxx or whatever, but but here here's what the media does. And and the craziest headline I saw about Rogen was that Rogen is taking a horse dewormer as medicine -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (01:14:27): -- David Sacks (01:14:27): referring to ivermectin. Right? Now look, I I don't know whether ivermectin is a helpful treatment or not. I think you gotta do a double blind study to figure that out. But I also think that it's very dishonest to to be describing ivermectin as a horsty worm. I mean, the the the person who invented ivermectin intended as a treatment for humans. Humans do take it as a treatment against certain parasites. It also happens to have a benefit in deworming horses, but that's just one of its applications. So to describe this drug as a horse dewormer as if it was the only thing it does, the the purpose of that is to make anyone who thinks that ivermectin is a possible treatment to make them look ridiculous. Right? And, you know, so why why is the press doing that? Well, the the agenda is the press decided that vaccines are good. Okay. I agree with them about that. But they but this is where it goes off the rails. They decide that anybody in in pursuing that agenda, They have to make any alternative vaccine, which would be any therapeutic treatment, and anyone who would take that therapeutic treatment look ridiculous. And this is where I think the media does cross over into total dishonesty. They're doing the same thing with monoclonal antibodies, which actually I think our treatment that works But anyone who is expressing support for Jason Calacanis (01:15:43): -- This all goes back to the polarization with Trump. Right? David Friedberg (01:15:45): He it Jason Calacanis (01:15:46): was the drug that he was so which a big proponent of that didn't actually work. David Friedberg (01:15:50): hydroxychloroquine. So Jason Calacanis (01:15:51): I think it's back to that. What do you think, Friedberg? Are you have any opinion on Joe Rogan getting dunked on? Another anecdotal story David Friedberg (01:16:01): of -- It's it's it's interesting to observe how much we've kind of as as with a lot of things. When I say we, I mean, like, society, each of us, reading social media, the Internet, media itself, kind of orient things along a spectrum right and wrong, black and white, left and right. I feel like vaccination and vaccines have similarly become you're either vaccinated and you're good you're not vaccinated or you're bad or the opposite is true. And it's pretty clear there's tons of evidence that vaccination, while it may reduce kind of the the severity of COVID, you know, there there seems to be much less protective effect with respect to transmission particularly with this Delta variant now, and that's just a fact. you know, you can say, oh my gosh. I'm vaccinated. Therefore, I'm safe. It's like, no. You're also exposed to delta as someone who's unvaccinated in terms of catching it and transmitting it to other people. There may be less severity and there may be less transmission. One interesting fact, by the way, is that there's much, much, much less time when you're vaccinated But you only get infected with Delta, but when you're actually infectious, yeah, incredibly incredibly reduced amount of time from, like, 10 days to, like, 1 to 2 days. But still, that is a very infectious kind of variant and so it's spreading. But it's almost like we're blaming people that aren't vaccinated for delta spreading. Delta spreading because it's a really effective virus at spreading. It's like end of story. And this orientation around, like, you're You're the reason that Delta's spreading is completely false, and everyone tries to then fit the story into that narrative. You know? The joke -- Yeah. David Sacks (01:17:41): Right. Don't don't don't you think there's, like, such a strong agenda? David Friedberg (01:17:44): got infected. It sucks. Like, it has nothing to do with -- Was he vaccinated or not? He was vaccinated. I don't know. Who care? Like, the point is it's not about, like, putting any didn't do anything wrong in the sense, and he he's not to blame this delta variant is infecting people. Saks got infected with delta. He's he's Jason Calacanis (01:18:00): vaccinated. I I think you're I think the point people are trying to make here, Friedberg, is that he's been kind of People believe that with his platform, he should be more pro vaxx because vaccines, there's no downside. David Sacks (01:18:13): But but but Jake, I'll there don't don't you agree. There's such a media agenda here. Like, once they decide what the agenda is gonna be, in this case, it's provax. And I'm not saying that's wrong. Okay? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:18:23): Right. David Sacks (01:18:23): I'm just saying that the way the media works is first they decide what the agenda is gonna be, then they distort everything to fit what their agenda is. So, for example, ivermectin's called a horse dewormer. And and the logic here is completely tortured. They just don't want there to be any therapeutic alternative to vaccination. Jason Calacanis (01:18:39): They don't wanna give credit. Yeah. They don't wanna give They David Sacks (01:18:42): don't wanna give credit to, potentially, and the same thing's true. Now look. I'm not saying ivermectin is an effective treatment. I have no idea, but there's no need to distort and demonize it before we even know truth is. David Friedberg (01:18:51): By the way, I wouldn't I I wouldn't use the term agenda. I know that that's a commonly used term that the media has an agenda I would argue that the media has a narrative. And I would secondly argue that that narrative isn't necessarily defined by the media or by some set of people in control but that that narrative is in effect defined by the consumers that consume the media. And they vote Jason Calacanis (01:19:13): -- Where were they click on the -- -- for you? David Friedberg (01:19:14): They vote with their views. And so the more views, the more clicks, the more dollars you spend on certain media outlets and certain writers, the more those writers get more stories to write and the more the consumption happens. And so my point of view is that the consumer ends up ultimately being the writer of the narrative and the definer of the narrative, and the storyline starts to fit that narrative versus feeling like we maybe felt years ago that, oh my gosh, there's a few people, the this cabal that's in control of the media, and they're running everything. and they're telling us what to believe in Citi. I think we vote I think consumers vote with their dollars. They vote with their views. And as a result, that that is the narrative that gets written Jason Calacanis (01:19:50): They were not supposed to be tribal. They were supposed to be objective that was the concept of reporting is to just report the facts and let the -- David Friedberg (01:19:57): Now it became a consumer product. Jason Calacanis (01:20:00): now it's be well, it's always been a consumer product, but now it's just become so hard to run those businesses -- Right? David Friedberg (01:20:04): It's -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (01:20:04): -- David Friedberg (01:20:04): the the more you sell, the more the more money you make, And if not, you Chamath Palihapitiya (01:20:07): know what? It was supposed Jason Calacanis (01:20:08): to be subscriptions were supposed to inoculate the reader the writers from this that, oh, we're we're getting paid for scribers. Therefore, we don't have to worry about clicks anymore. Now it's happening. It's worse because you will lose your paid subscribers if you don't give them what they want. David Friedberg (01:20:23): I'm gonna predict right now our downvotes on YouTube are gonna be in the 6 to 10% range. So we've covered Speaker 4 (01:20:28): we've covered freaking COVID abortion. Joe again. Back to India. David Friedberg (01:20:34): Like, this is gonna be our worst rated episode. Jason Calacanis (01:20:36): But it was a good discussion between the the four of us alright, everybody. 4 The rainman, David Sachs. Please download the all in app. Just put a c in front of all in, and you'll find it in the app store. Congratulations to the Folks who got into the syndicate, and thank you to Saks for allowing -- Chamath Palihapitiya (01:20:54): Thanks, Saks. Jason Calacanis (01:20:55): -- all in syndicate to Participate and lead the series b. We're gonna be leading the series b. Saks gave us the ability to lead the series b. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:21:04): On 45 bitches, Billy. 40 5. I I 45 never felt Jason Calacanis (01:21:08): 45. You look good. Do you have a little pocket silver? David Sacks (01:21:11): By the way, we have a show called all in after party on Colin where we, you know, we've done a couple so it's including We introduced our WAC Pack. You know, it's a sort of in between. So, like, actually, what we should do is all the fans of the show. If you like all in and you want a little more bestie, Go Jason Calacanis (01:21:26): -- Go to the after show. David Sacks (01:21:27): Go to the go and sign up for all in after party. We have 44100 subscribers already after one day on the app. It's pretty good. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:21:32): Yeah. That's good. Jason Calacanis (01:21:33): I mean, Be great for those, especially if the WACC packets in there. I I talked to our guy who does the merch, the bestie merch guy, and he said he's made, like, 5 or $6 on March in the last quarter. He's paying his way through school on it. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:21:46): That is so great. Yeah. David Friedberg (01:21:47): I'm happy for him. Jason Calacanis (01:21:48): Alright. Friedberg, we'll see you at the Production board closed event. Nobody can get in. Sorry if you want a ticket. It's not available. Tremont, happy birthday. David Friedberg (01:21:58): Happy birthday, Steve. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:21:59): Thanks, guys. Alright. David Friedberg (01:22:00): We'll see you all. Wait, Saks. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:02): This is where you say happy birthday. You fucking -- Yeah. Jason Calacanis (01:22:04): Happy birthday. Say I love you, bestie. h David Sacks (01:22:06): n g. hpd/hpd.hpd. Speaker 4 (01:22:11): Bloody. Jason Calacanis (01:22:11): Bloody. Has has Saks ever used an emoji? I don't think Saks has ever emoji. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:17): I mean, I I I have I have Jason Calacanis (01:22:19): 10 Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:19): years of text messages with this fuck. He's never used a single emoji once. Jason Calacanis (01:22:22): No. That because he has no emotion. We'll put the emoji in there the Dave's -- He's Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:26): written he's written at one point smiley emoticon. He wrote that was working smiley emotion. Jason Calacanis (01:22:32): Alright. And, congratulate, is to producer Nick, who is getting married. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:37): Yeah. It's a great fucking decision. See on the other side, you fucking dumbass. Speaker 4 (01:22:44): Congratulations, Nick. David Friedberg (01:22:45): We love it. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:46): And Rachel. Jason Calacanis (01:22:46): And Rachel. Congratulations, guys. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:22:48): Rachel, you're gonna get half of the call in stock that Nick asked him. Speaker 4 (01:22:51): Congratulations. You got half of his adviser shares to Jason Calacanis (01:22:57): to call in. Alright. We'll see you all next time. Bye bye. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:01): We'll let your winner slide. Rainman, David Sachs. Speaker 4 (01:23:09): We open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:17): like, white hair when they're trying. Speaker 4 (01:23:21): Bestie's our call. I told her to death. David Friedberg (01:23:24): That is my dog thinking. I was Chamath Palihapitiya (01:23:32): We should all just get a big you, George, because they're all these useless. It's like this, like, sexual friendship that they just need to release somehow. Speaker 4 (01:23:40): What? You're the VP. What? David Sacks (01:23:43): Pure feet. Sweat. Jason Calacanis (01:23:45): We need to get mercies are back.