白宫幕后、谷歌收购 Wiz、财政部与美联储角力、太空救援

Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:00): Friedberg had this great story. There's a machine there. I've never seen this machine in my life, but David Friedberg (00:00:04): he knew the machine. There's a machine Coca Cola Freestyle machine. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:08): A machine that's right by the Navy mess where we had lunch and the situation room, which dispenses literally I've never seen this before. Jason Calacanis (00:00:16): This is how out of touch you are. This is in every seven Eleven. 90 different movies. Theater. Every McDonald's. Cyan Bannister (00:00:23): Every movie theater. Everywhere. Jason Calacanis (00:00:25): This is everywhere. You have Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:27): not left. I was blown away by this machine. All the Coca Colas, all Jason Calacanis (00:00:31): the other Gatorade. Tomas, let me ask you a question. David Friedberg (00:00:36): How much is a dozen eggs? $3.99. Jason Calacanis (00:00:39): Much? Yeah. $399. She got it. $399. That's right. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:43): No. $3.99. David Friedberg (00:00:46): Dollars and 90 9 cents. Jason Calacanis (00:00:47): Pretty close. It's pretty much double that in the Bay Area or Whole Foods, yeah, it's half that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:50): Ask me how much milk is. David Friedberg (00:00:52): How much is milk? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:54): $8.99 to $11.99 depending on what you buy. David Friedberg (00:00:56): How much is a sweater, Timoth? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:58): My sweater is $4,000. Jason Calacanis (00:01:01): Alright. David Sacks (00:01:02): Now we're back, everybody. We're back. We'll let your winner Jason Calacanis (00:01:20): Alright, everybody. Welcome back to the number one podcast in the world, the all in podcast. With me again, Shamath Palihapitiya, David Friedberg, and look at this. Look at this live from DC. Our bestie David Sacks is back. He's suited up in the administration and in the fifth bestie seat for the second time. My long term bestie, Cyan Bannister, hot on the trails of her new fund getting announced. Congratulations on that, Cyan. Cyan Bannister (00:01:51): Thank you. Thank you. Excited to be back, and I'm so ex I did not expect to see David. So, like, I'm over the moon. I'm, like, so excited. David Sacks (00:02:00): Well, I just popped in to reminisce about this trip that Shermoth and Freeburg just did. David Friedberg (00:02:06): Oh, wow. Yeah. Trip of a lifetime. Trip of David Sacks (00:02:09): a lifetime. All the besties at the White House. It was really incredible. Incredible. Oh, wait. Jason Calacanis (00:02:13): The hell was it there? No. Actually, it's interesting to say that. It's interesting. I I checked my spam filters, and my invite got stuck in the spam filters. Okay. Yeah. It was a little bit of problem. But I, know, had ski week this week, so I wouldn't have been able to make it anyway. But, yeah, you know, I noticed there were some other invites stuck in my couple of other invites got stuck. Yeah. My Jeopardy invite. I see that you guys are all gonna be in the next Jeopardy in the second round. My invite to Jeopardy somehow got lost. I have to talk to John, the CEO. So that kinda that was kind of a bummer. Also, I also I missed my I missed my invite to the Bridgerton. You got a cameo in Bridgerton there, is it? Yeah. I'm not gonna be on the Netflix show Bridgerton. Missed that. Cyan Bannister (00:02:59): I think David Sacks (00:03:00): we're in a bit. Let's keep going. Jason Calacanis (00:03:01): You're in a you're in bit. And looks like my white party invite here with Diddy. Oh, well, we just cut it in post. Oh, god. Thank god. The white part. Oh, look. Epstein's Island. Oh, no. I'm sorry. That was Reid Hoffman's invite. That was you. That out of David Friedberg (00:03:16): you, bro. Jason Calacanis (00:03:17): Hell yeah. Yeah. Missed the miss my You're David Sacks (00:03:19): on a roll here. Keep going. Jason Calacanis (00:03:23): Alright. Alright. Let's get back to it. Let's get back to it. It was a triumphant week for our besties. They were like little school girls giggling on the group chat. Oh my god. I'm in the White House. Oh my god. Look. I'm getting closer to power. What was it like? Shamas, your dream has come true. You came here to America from Canada. You built all this from nothing, and you wound up at the White House. Give it to me. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:03:46): It was probably the most intense three days that we had. Nat and I were there to see the president, but, obviously, we were there to see Sachs as well. But there was a bunch of other things that happened. Myself, Freiberg, New Money Sunny was there. Our bestie, Elon Musk, obviously, we dropped in with him. So to recap, on Sunday, we got in. It was just like raining cats of dogs. Nothing to say there. Then on Monday, what happened was we basically had some meetings in the morning, and then David said, guys, let me just walk you around and just show you where I work. David Friedberg (00:04:22): By the way, we camped out in Sachs' office for three days, which was awesome. So we we had the passes to be at the West Wing and in the Eisenhower Building. That's Sachs' office. And so we all kinda worked from there, And then we went and did our meetings from Sax's office, and Sax's incredible chief of staff, Tracy, escorted us around anytime we needed to go anywhere. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:44): So then we we started to walk through the West Wing. We dropped by. Jason Calacanis (00:04:48): Look at Saks' office, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:49): Rusty. We shop Jason Calacanis (00:04:50): by you've done with the place. Were you allowed to put up a piece of art? And Look at that desktop rig. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:04:56): I think the most iconic part of the West Wing is the portico where you see that those very famous shots of all these very important people. In this case, it's just the four of us. But you can see, Nick, there's the shot of all David Friedberg (00:05:10): of us. Well, the portico connects the West Wing to the president's residence. Tracy, Sax's chief of staff, escorted us from the West Wing after we did an amazing tour of the West Wing over to the residence. I don't know if we were really supposed to do it, but she she has full access. So we were able to kinda go on the walk, and then we took a walk around the residence and saw all the rooms. But this is the entrance to the West Wing right here. So when you come in for for meetings, administrators so we walk in. Pam Bondi's on our way out. We we got to meet Pam Bondi. I mean, it really is amazing. Like, members of the cabinet are coming in and out of this door. Members that work in the West Wing David Sacks (00:05:44): are David Friedberg (00:05:44): coming in and out this Yeah. And then we saw, like, leaders coming in. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:47): One of the most iconic things we were allowed to do was see the Press Room. By the way, the people that work and we'll get to it in a second because we met some incredible people that work in the White House. But some of the folks that don't necessarily get a lot of flowers, like folks that work in, like, the Upper Press Room and the Lower Press Room, some of the kindest people. And what they did was they're like, oh, guys, why don't you come and see where they do the presidential briefings? And the one thing about the White House is everything is just like in a nook and cranny away. So this is where obviously, you see the presidential seal isn't there because the president is not there, but we were able to do that. We met some So you're Jason Calacanis (00:06:23): in the Press Room here? This is the actual Press Room? This is what it was. Cyan Bannister (00:06:26): By the David Friedberg (00:06:26): way, it was just so small. It's so small. It's a little door off the side. This the whole West Wing is, like, disarmingly small. You can walk for fifteen seconds between the Oval Office and pretty much everywhere else in the West Wing. It really is a very tight, and Elon's got an office in there that we got to kinda drop in and say hi. The president, obviously, Chamath went over to the Oval. Then there's the Situation Room. I mean, everything is within a couple of steps of everything, and it really is. You're in these kind of historic moments as you walk through this. You just feel the resonance of everything that you've heard about and seen and all the history and legacy to every everything, and it's just all right there compact in one space. You're just overwhelmed. It really was overwhelming for me emotionally. It was overwhelming intellectually. You just kinda walk around and, you know, it's just you're you're a part of it. And it was so I was telling Shamat, it was so emotional for me at the end of the day to just be like, man, like, you come to this country, come to America, you know, from wherever you came from, and anyone can find their way into this historic space. That's the beauty of this country. And I it never really hit me until we were in this moment. So let me show you kinda really got it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:07:40): We met some really incredible people. Nick, you can find a picture of myself and Freiberg and Sonny and Sachs. We're with Taylor Butowich. Who's that? David, he's a deputy chief of staff. David Sacks (00:07:51): Right? Chief of staff for communications in the White House. His office is is well placed because through that window behind us is the gaggle. There's this lawn out on the the White House called Pebble Beach, and all the networks have tents there. And they'll do recordings with White House officials, and the White House will be in the background. It's not like a green screen or an LED. It's the actual White House will be in the background. That's why it's all set up there, and it's called Pebble Beach. And then there's an area, I think they call it like the Styx, which is basically just like a paved area where White House officials can go out there and they get swarmed by all the media asking them questions, and that's called the gaggle. So he can keep an eye on everything that's happening with the media through that window in his office. Jason Calacanis (00:08:33): Is that where Marine One lands and you see everybody yelling at the president and trying to, like, talk on the copters, or that's on the other side? That's on Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:40): the other side. David Sacks (00:08:40): Yeah. It's on the other side. But a lot of those reporters will just move over there when they have the opportunity do But, like, when you Caroline Levitt, who's the White House press secretary, or Stephen Miller, who's the Yeah. Deputy chief of staff for policy, they'll come out, and all of a sudden, they're speaking at a microphone. It'll seem impromptu. There'll be a lot of reporters. That's usually the the sticks, and that's the the White House gaggle. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:00): We saw Elon, obviously. Nick, you can just show the picture of all of us with Elon. And the incredible thing is here you have the most incredible entrepreneur of our lifetime dealing with so many complicated issues. And I'll tell you, Elon works in one of the smallest offices I've ever seen. All he has is a desk with an enormous screen and his phone, and you can see that there is nothing that matters except the task at hand, and that's really inspiring. Like, it it just puts everybody on the same level. You feel this energy that all of these guys are doing incredible work on behalf of the country to a one, where there's no ego about some of these things, meaning what is the office size? What is this? What is that? They're just here to grind. David Friedberg (00:09:47): And I don't think I've ever seen a workforce more happy. Like, you get there, and the energy and the intensity, it's very much like the TV show West Wing. There's just this constant momentum. Every day, you live a whole lifetime, and everyone is just, like, energized. And you you like, I I was talking to Sachs' chief of staff, and she's like, there you just never calm down. Like, you never you're never like there's never a dull moment here, and that's why everyone kinda has this grin on their face. They're just so happy to be doing this work. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:10:18): The intensity I'm gonna I'm gonna describe to you a forty five minute or so experience in the Oval. So the next day, myself and Nat and Sachs go to see POTUS in the Oval. And there's this incredible meeting room, and you're kind of you wait there, right, the waiting room. It's quite large. It's very beautiful, you know, beautiful sofas, etcetera. And then they say, oh, president's ready to see you. And you get escorted into the Oval. And the one thing that strike that struck me about the Oval is it's also much smaller than what you would think. Like, it's a very good size, and it's a very natural size, but it's beautiful and it's inspiring. And our experience was Nat was in the front, I'm in the middle, and then David's beside me. And as we were walking through, you could hear that there was this, like, very important conversation happening between and somebody else who I won't say about something that I won't say, but it was really important. And we walk through the Oval, and we walk through the back, and we go into his private dining room. And that has all this incredible memorabilia sticking around. Nick, maybe you can show the picture of me, Nat, and the president. So we had this conversation. And in the middle of the conversation, we had a chance to watch some Fox News together because the Dragon capsule was landing. And I texted Elon. I said, hey. We're in the Oval. Do you wanna come drop in? He texts back. Can't Dragon capsule landing. I'm like, yeah. I know. We're watching it right now. So Nat, myself, POTUS, Sachs were watching this thing kind of unfold. Anyways, then we have our meeting, it ends. And we walk out into sort of like this area where Taylor's office is, like where that picture was. And we continue to just randomly sit there watching, and this is what you mean, Freeburg. Marco Rubio comes by. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:12:18): And so now we're all just standing around. There's Marco Rubio. We were talking about the the landing. And then out of the left hand side, Sheikh Tanun comes in because he's there to say hi to the president. Then he comes in, obviously, says hi to Marco Rubio, says hi to me. We talked for a few minutes. He leaves. So the intensity of the people, just within two steps of each other, you had you saw the CIA director walk in and out. It's just an it's an incredibly mesmerizing place where irrespective, I think, of your political ideology, the minute that you're there, I think it's hard to not be anything but team America. I think it's impossible, actually, and it's really inspiring. And by the way, coming home, I feel like I'm crashing, meaning, like, there's such a level of adrenaline and dopamine. And, you know, we are like these observers. So I can only imagine, Sax, what it feels like for you when you're not in that environment. It's a really intoxicating, mesmerizing place. David Sacks (00:13:21): I think that's well said, Jamath. And every day, there's something new. You know? Every day, you discover something new. One day, it's the the Navy mess where you you didn't mention that, but we got a chance David Friedberg (00:13:31): to Cut over to that, Nick. There's, like, really we yeah. We had lunch there. It was incredible. David Sacks (00:13:36): Did you get a photo of the burgers, though? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:13:37): I did. I sent Nick a car David Friedberg (00:13:38): a photo of the burger. Jason Calacanis (00:13:39): I got the veggie burger. Famous. Right? Because it's got the seal on the top. Yeah. It's got the seal. David Sacks (00:13:43): They must use some sort of grill tool to burn the seal the president of The United States onto the burgers. Oh, that's a nice touch. David Friedberg (00:13:52): By the way, you wanna know something? They didn't do it on the veggie burger. Jason Calacanis (00:13:54): Have veggie burger. David Sacks (00:13:55): What does that say? David Friedberg (00:13:56): They're sending Jason Calacanis (00:13:57): you a message. They sent you a message. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:14:00): By the way, what's incredible about, like, the the narrowness and the smallness, there's just a door that does not look all that assuming. It's very unassuming. And there's just a small sign that says situation room. Jason Calacanis (00:14:12): Right. Right. Right. Where we were the mess. David Sacks (00:14:14): There's a little corridor off of the the West Wing lobby, which by the way, like you said, if you're hanging out in the West Wing lobby, you're gonna run into all sorts of interesting people. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:14:22): Everybody. David Sacks (00:14:23): But you go down this little passageway. It's so small. The the header of the door is so small that Sri Ram, you know, who does AI policy, he's six six. He almost concussed himself once because he hit his head at the top of the door. I think the door frame's about six six two is the clearance. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:14:38): Maybe. Wow. It was Jason Calacanis (00:14:40): made over a hundred years ago. David Sacks (00:14:41): Yes. So he literally has to duck his head every time he walks by. In any event, if you walk to the end of that passageway, there's a little kiosk to get a coffee or you turn the other way and you're in the situation room. I mean, it's really Jason Calacanis (00:14:53): You could be whacking a terrorist from 4,000 miles away, or you can get a mocha. You could do both. Why choose? Sayan, you have a question. David Friedberg (00:15:02): What are thinking? Jason Calacanis (00:15:03): I want taking all this in. Cyan Bannister (00:15:04): I want I want to know what his favorite piece of art is there and whether or not David and Shmoth saw the Declaration of Independence. David Sacks (00:15:13): Yeah. Actually, yeah. Well, go ahead, Shmoth. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:15): We yeah. We saw it. I mean, so this is the problem, Syan. I I feel like I want to redo that moment fit I mean, David gets to do it every day, but I wanna redo it 50 times because we didn't necessarily stop there. He has to open and close the curtains because they wanna keep the sun off the declaration of independence. Jason Calacanis (00:15:33): Probably a good idea. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:34): I didn't think to like, oh, sir, can we just stop? It's just such a whirlwind that I wanna redo. There's Cyan Bannister (00:15:41): like I Jason Calacanis (00:15:41): think you'll Cyan Bannister (00:15:42): get a chance to. Jason Calacanis (00:15:43): I think you will. Well, when I run and I'm president because I'm the only one here who can, I will definitely Cyan can't catch her? Cyan can. Oh, wait. Cyan, you're member. Yeah. You're you're a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:54): Way to dial up the misogyny. Good good for you. Jason Calacanis (00:15:56): Yeah. Good I was talking about the the besties here. Forgot for a second. David Friedberg (00:15:59): She's a bestie. Jason Calacanis (00:16:00): Alright. Listen. Amazing. I was wondering about the choice of the double breasted, Chamath. This is a strong, strong choice here to go double breasted to the White House. Take me through the thinking. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:09): So first of all, big shout out to Luca Rubinacci, my tailor. I did double breasted on Monday and Wednesday. Woah. Jason Calacanis (00:16:17): And two in this she went so you you quaded it in one week? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:20): But then I I went I went single breasted to see POTUS. Jason Calacanis (00:16:23): I did notice that. Yeah. It's a little gratuitous to go triple double. Yeah. You don't wanna triple double. David Friedberg (00:16:27): No. By the way, so we're we're hanging out in the White House, and we got the random it was, like, 01:00 in the afternoon, Shammoth, on Monday, when they said, hey. Would you guys like to sit down with secretary of the treasury, Scott Besson? And so then Jason Calacanis (00:16:40): we Special bonus episode. David Friedberg (00:16:42): They're, like, at 05:30 today. We had a dinner at seven, seven thirty. So it was pretty tight, but we were like, yes. That sounds good. So then we got to go over to treasury later in the afternoon. We had a camera guy come and set up. So, yeah, here's this this this beautiful room in Treasury. I've I've forgot the name of the room. Do you remember? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:17:00): Yes. It was like the something Chase Room, I think. David Friedberg (00:17:02): We gotta find this. Beautiful room. So we set up the interviews on YouTube, obviously, on X. Jason Calacanis (00:17:09): And on the main feed. It's on the Chamath Palihapitiya (00:17:10): main feed. David Friedberg (00:17:10): And on the main feed. And then we got a call after we did the Besson interview, and and it you know, I think folks that were there from press said that work that was great. Howard Lutnick, who Chamath was going to be doing a meeting with on Wednesday morning right before we were flying home, said, what if I come in early before our meeting, Jamath, and we do a sit down? So we said, friends, let's do it. So then we got to go to the White House Press Auditorium. They have a special auditorium just outside the West Wing, and you guys will recognize the stage, obviously, for many Biden press interviews. Here's the the stage. And so then we did this interview with Lutnick, and my god, this is gonna be a barn burner of an interview when it comes out. David Sacks (00:17:50): I ran into him after he had done this interview, and he was he was excited about it. Sounds like you guys were on fire. David Friedberg (00:17:56): He was on fire, Saxe. I mean, this guy, I think it's gonna there's gonna be so many clips out of this interview. It was incredible. It was, like, over an hour and a half. Wow. He just kept going and going. He yeah. After there afterwards, we Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:06): went to his building. By the way, you know that he's the secretary of commerce. Howard's office is the war department office, the old war department office. So we jumped in his car, and we went to his office. It is the most beautiful. I I this is again, I didn't think to stop and take photos. I should have taken more photos, but his office is outrageously beautiful. Saks, I don't know if you've been over there. David Sacks (00:18:28): Yeah. I have. Yeah. I had a meeting over there. David Friedberg (00:18:29): Okay. So let me just let me just say let me just say one thing. I wanna say that politics and policy aside, these individuals from the White House deputy chief of staff to these members of the cabinet to all the staff that work in the West Wing were incredibly open and transparent. There were no press people intervening or involved. It was very random, very ad hoc that we got to have these sit down conversations, and they were just so open. And I just wanna say, like, that was really refreshing and really incredible. And and I feel really privileged to have had the opportunity to kinda sit through this, but, you know, I I was not expecting this on this trip at all. David Sacks (00:19:04): I think that when you work in the White House and and you have been successful in the private sector, like a Scott Besson or Howard Lutnick or myself Or Doug Burgum. Or Elon, especially, I would describe it as a money for purpose trade. You're giving up money, but the sense of purpose you feel working for the White House, for this president is just incredible. And I think you guys kinda picked up on that. And in my view, that's a trade that you should be happy to make any day of the week because it is really an honor to to work at the the White House and for this president because he actually wants to get things done on behalf of the American people. The default state of Washington is just that nothing gets done. Right? You guys know that. The bureaucracy and the the entropy and the inertia just basically rule the day. And so it takes a president who, number one, has a mandate for the American people, number two, has a tremendous sense of mission and purpose, and number three, brings tremendous energy to the job, and then I think finally assembles the right team around him. And those are the conditions under which you can actually make change, positive change for the country. And we have that. And it's kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity. If we don't get this done now, if we're not able to cut the deficit and debt now, when are we ever gonna do it? This the, you know, this is a once in a lifetime opportunity. And I think everybody there feels that. I think everyone in the White House is really proud to be there and excited to be there. And it's fun. You know, part of it is that, you know, you can tell that president, that he makes this job fun because he's having a great time. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:20:36): Yeah. David Sacks (00:20:37): He was really, I think, born to do this job, I mean, in so many He just brings so much energy to it. He's indefatigable. There's so many David Friedberg (00:20:44): He's he's empowering. He's like everyone we met with, Zach, to your point, they've all been successful in another part of life, in in business and whatnot, and they're generally post economic people, but he's letting everyone run. We got to meet with several other members of the cabinet, and they were all sharing with us that they're being given autonomy and authority. They can just run. And I think that that's really important. If you wanna bring in high impact people, you need to let them have an impact and let them do their thing. I I observe that. Can I give Chamath Palihapitiya (00:21:12): you one quick anecdote maybe to wrap this segment up? So when we're sitting in when we're at the private dining room, Steve Witkoff, who's another incredible entrepreneur, was dealing with something sensitive, comes in, tells the president. He's like, okay. Great. Great job. Then there was three other issues. Sachs had something, then Sergio had something. And then on top of all of that, so there's this bang, bang, bang, and then he's also like, guys, listen. For this dinner coming up, I really wanna make sure the acoustics is right so everybody has an opportunity. It's like the level of detail from the most important thing all the way down to literally the acoustics in the dining room, he is on top of all of it. And I was just like and that was, again, just in my small little brief observation. And I was like, this is crazy, Saks, to your point. Like, the energy and the indefatigability and the desire to get every little thing right, it's pretty rare. I kind of feel like America's in good hands, to be honest. David Sacks (00:22:09): You saw just in those few minutes when he's being peppered with so many decisions, so many actions. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:13): So many decisions. David Sacks (00:22:14): You just realize what a demanding job it is, and you really need a person who just is special in that way, that they're just somehow cut out for that type of job. It is very difficult. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:26): Totally agree. I think Friedberg is totally right. If we can create a pattern where people with high executive let's just say that because that's less of a loaded word than businessman or successful whatever. People with high executive function that have proven it should, at some point in their career, step into government and replace money for purpose. If that is a trend that this administration creates, I think America is in incredible hands. David Friedberg (00:22:52): Eventually, which is how the founding fathers operated the government originally. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:22:56): There'll be a moment, guys, where the Democrats win. Right? There'll be a moment when the Republicans return to power. There'll be a moment when all the ideologies flip. But if in all of that, you can find people who are willing to pause their private lives, have demonstrated executive function, can make the trade, we're gonna just kick ass. David Friedberg (00:23:15): And give back. It was Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:18): David, thank you. I really honestly, thank you. Like, you are Cyan Bannister (00:23:21): Yeah. Thank you, David. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:22): You're awesome. Thank you for giving us a window into that. I think David Friedberg (00:23:26): it And shout out to Tracy as well who has done an incredible job. Job. J Cal, what'd you think of the best interview? Did you see it? Jason Calacanis (00:23:35): I did watch the best one. Yeah. I mean, listen. I would have loved to ask him a couple questions. Obviously, I would have probably done a couple of fastballs, curveballs. It would have gone a little bit harder, but he is so impressive, and you guys did like an hour with him. And I haven't heard Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:49): What did we miss that you would have asked? Jason Calacanis (00:23:51): Yeah. I mean, you know, you gotta get a little bit into the chaos David Sacks (00:23:55): being crazy around. Jason Calacanis (00:23:56): For me David Sacks (00:23:56): to drop off. Jason Calacanis (00:23:57): Yeah. I'll drop off David Sacks (00:23:58): the takeout here. Pontificate and tell Jason Calacanis (00:24:00): us what a what a David Sacks (00:24:01): job he would do. Okay. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:24:03): Well, thank David Sacks (00:24:04): you. Yeah. We'll we'll we'll see you later. You can tell everyone now what a great job you would have done. Jason Calacanis (00:24:08): Love you, Zach. David Sacks (00:24:09): Love you, guys. Jason Calacanis (00:24:09): Love you, Brian. David Sacks (00:24:10): See you. Jason Calacanis (00:24:10): Love you, Love you the commissary. What a guy. No. I thought it was really good to hear from him long form. I think there's a little bit of chaos going on with the terrorists and stuff like that. But, you know, I don't think the country knows how great he is. This guy is a powerhouse. He has an incredible track record. And by the way, like, Trump picking him I'm gonna give Trump a little bit of flowers here. Obviously, folks know I'm an independent and a never Trumper who is, you know, supporting the administration to do the best they can. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:24:38): What does it mean to be independent but also have another label that says you refuse to consider somebody? I don't understand Cyan Bannister (00:24:43): why. Open. Jason Calacanis (00:24:44): Well, no. I mean, I I I didn't I had my own issues with, you know, what Trump did on January 6. We don't need to get into it overturning Roe v. Wade. We don't have to get into the things that I don't agree with what he did. Putting all those things aside, I think he's done a great job with the team he's putting here. And this is, you know, my message to, I think, some of the Americans or the people on the left is I would look at what he's doing and some of these individuals. These are really high functioning individuals. The last time, I think he had a cast of characters around him who I think were kinda dark, and I didn't care for a lot of them. With Besson, this guy is like a buy I think he, you know, was previously a democrat who gave to a ton of democrats, and he is a powerhouse. And I think he really understands financial David Friedberg (00:25:27): big donor to Hillary, and then RFK was a democrat. Tulsi was a democrat. Trump was a democrat. I mean, you know, this is my point. Jason Calacanis (00:25:36): I was a Democrat. You were a Democrat. Yeah. So I think that's you know, Besant is I came away from it saying this guy is super qualified, and the chaos that I think Trump has been creating with, like, the back and forth with the tariffs and his communication style, it made me feel better to know that there was somebody who was rock solid like him in there and who's really thoughtful. Because right now, when you talk to 50 people who are knowledgeable about the markets and say, what is the strategy here that Trump has? You get 10 different answers, five different vectors for it. People are trying to figure out exactly what he's trying to do, and there's a lot of nonconsensus. But hearing that he's got somebody like him there and you talking to him for an hour, I felt much better about the situation. And that maybe David Friedberg (00:26:21): there is plan here. I Jason Calacanis (00:26:24): think, yeah, it was a it was a solid interview. Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean, the access level, you know, most of the time, he's on something like meet the press or David Friedberg (00:26:32): Eleven minutes. Jason Calacanis (00:26:32): Destination, and it's eleven minutes, and the guy can't breathe. And for him to go an hour and you you kinda you did a good job, Shermath, of sort of giving his history with a which I think the context most Americans don't have. So I was very proud of the job the two of you did. I wish I was there. David Friedberg (00:26:48): Shammoth did a great job, by way, because Shammoth t that he had a very incredible Shammoth, by the way, gotta give you flowers for having good intuition on some of the questions you asked both Lutnick and Besson that I think revealed a little bit more about their character and who they are as people, which I was not on. I'm all about, like, what are the hard what are the questions I wanna ask related to policy and agenda? But you did a great job bringing that out in them. And and that actually, I think, created a lot of texture for both interviews that I was not I was not thinking about. It's a great job. Jason Calacanis (00:27:16): I'm looking forward to the next one. I don't know when that drops, but that should be really good. David Friedberg (00:27:20): Oh my god. That's dude, the Whatnik interview is like I mean, that's Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:24): guys, like, he's on Thursday. Jason Calacanis (00:27:25): He's a hardcore New Yorker, and, like, he really David Friedberg (00:27:29): I mean, did you guys talk to about tariffs? Jason Calacanis (00:27:31): Let me tell you. Yeah. We did talk about tariffs. Listen. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:33): Yeah. Thing you need to know about Howard Lutnick is he is an incredibly resilient and resourceful businessman. This guy has built himself up literally from nothing. Good human. I'm a little biased, but he's a great guy. And you're gonna hear some really incredible stories. But, again, another one who traded money for purpose. David Friedberg (00:27:56): Look. I just wanna say real quick, we don't do ads on the show, but we did have three sponsors that actually helped fund our DC trip and set this thing up for us. So I really wanna say thank you to HIMMS, HIMMS dot com, and ForHers, Gemini, and iTrust. Everyone listening to the show, please go to the description, whatever player you're in. Check them out. These three sponsors help make this trip happen. We're really appreciative. Please take a look at their websites. Give their products a shot. Thank you to HIMSS, Gemini, and iTrust. You guys are the best. We really appreciate it. Jason Calacanis (00:28:25): Alright, everybody. We got a full docket today. Lots of docket. And, you know, just hey. Welcome back to the show, Syann. I just wanted to start. You had a really great announcement this week. Long Journey Ventures, your venture capital firm, announced a hundred $80,000,000 fund. Tell us a little bit about that. Cyan Bannister (00:28:43): Well, a hundred and 81, 1 8 1, 1 8 1, and 18. 18 stands for life to people who are Jewish, and my partners are Jewish. And it was something that was very important, to them and to me, to stand up after October 7 and, you know, take a very public stance. And so we announced our funding announcement on Bloomberg yesterday, and and our office is on Eighteenth Street. David Friedberg (00:29:12): So Oh, congrats. Jason Calacanis (00:29:14): Yeah. That's awesome. What is the mission of the venture fund? What what what stage are you gonna do? You and I started as angel investors together fourteen years ago? Cyan Bannister (00:29:22): So focus on early stage seed checks, first check-in, and this fund is our fourth fund. We institutionalized more. In the beginning, it was high net worth individuals and then now we're going to kind of what Shmoth was speaking about earlier is aligning what we do with our higher purpose. And so now we're helping institutions help people go to school, solving cancer things like that, so every day that we get up in the morning, we're aligning what we do. Our mission is to chase the magically weird, we're looking for alpha in things, when everybody is consensus investing and they're doing the same thing and talking about the same things, we're thinking six to eight years in the future. Our Fund three, we invested in a company in the chip space and we were thinking ahead about what's going to power AI and crypto And now that everybody's investing in the application layer, we're going into the next thing, which is like, what is that going to enable and what's coming down the road and looking for founders that are thinking differently that most other of my peers would look at it and say, that's crazy, I don't wanna put any money into that. So that's that's Jason Calacanis (00:30:31): where we took the time. Such a hard thing for people to get their heads around, the nonconsensus bet, and why that's so important. I'm, you know, I'm training, you know, new associates at our firm, they always are going to safety. So they're looking at a vertical. They're looking at a startup and saying, well, this makes the most sense. And then they look at the ones that don't make sense, but that are, like, intriguing, and they are like, yeah. I I don't know if I wanna place a bet on that because I am seeing I'm that's where the gold is. Is that a consensus bet? When you and I did Uber, it was a room of 21 people, three people decided to invest, 19 didn't. Cyan Bannister (00:31:07): Yeah. That was a magically weird company at the time. If you remember, I sent it around to multiple investors, and they came back with the stupidest excuses I ever heard, but it was their excuse which is, you know, not everyone wants a black car, the car doesn't come to my house yet, no one wants to get into a stranger's vehicle, the list goes on and on. But it takes a vision of seeing the future and seeing how it plays out and believing in all the miracles that are gonna happen. And getting in early is where all the alpha is, you know, before the thing is defined as a category. So that's where I David Friedberg (00:31:37): like to Cyan Bannister (00:31:38): play is I don't want it to even have a market name yet. Jason Calacanis (00:31:41): Such a great observation. Like, when when a when an associate or some research company says, oh, it's the on demand economy, that's when you know that opportunity gone. Cyan Bannister (00:31:51): You can let that's where, like, all of my peers can go lose all their money in an ocean of dead bodies bodies, because like, I don't wanna play there. Jason Calacanis (00:32:00): Yeah, Cyan Bannister (00:32:01): always And you get a price advantage too, right? Like if you enter early, before it's a defined category, you're taking on a lot of risk. And so, I'm getting deals anywhere from like five to 10 posts while all of my peers are playing in the 20 to 30 range. And so, obviously Jason Calacanis (00:32:14): Literally, you and I are the product of, you know, our early bets and, like, what the lessons we learned. And, like, one of those lessons was to be in early. It's literally what I'm doing founder university now is just trying do a hundred it's just like a pre accelerator. If I find two or three founders who I like, I give them their first twenty five k check or a hundred 25 k check where they can just come, know, do it with me. We're starting next Friday, so people wanna come founder.university. But it's just like what we used to do in the old days, trying to get in Congrats. Be the first investor. And it's it's really working, and it's super fun. Hey. Listen. There is great news, I think, for the venture industry. This Google acquiring Wiz, I think this is this could be the starter's pistol the Yeah. It's absolutely fantastic. Google has acquired Wiz for $32,000,000,000 in cash. If you don't know what Wizz is, just imagine you have cloud services like Microsoft's Azure, Amazon Web Services, Google's cloud, Oracle's cloud. You need to have security between these things. They help do that. It's the largest deal in Google's history. David was there, I think, for some of the other big acquisitions. There haven't been a lot of acquisitions. Obviously, know the wrath of Lina Khan was pretty acute for the last four years. But looking back in history, Salesforce buying Slack, which our bestie Chamath here was an early investor in for 27,000,000,000 that occurred in 2020. And then we had a couple of things get blocked. HP and was it Juniper, I believe, for 14,000,000,000 last year got blocked. And so Adobe Figma? Adobe Figma got blocked. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:52): The UK. Blocked in the Jason Calacanis (00:33:54): Blocked in UK, but they, you know, assumed it was gonna happen here. And this is actually we talked about this on episode one eighty nine, Shammoth. Wiz turned down $23,000,000,000 from Google. They said at the time it was because they wanted to IPO, but now reporting is saying Chamath Palihapitiya (00:34:07): I mean Jason Calacanis (00:34:08): it was because of the antitrust stuff under Biden plus The UK, obviously. Go ahead, Shammoth. You can take it from there. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:34:13): I think this is the Trump premium. I mean, the problem when that deal was being looked at back then was there was still a chance that there could be a Democrat administration, and it was very clear that they were anti m and a and anti tech, quite honestly. And when Trump won, I think it basically said, okay. We can now look at these deals. There's another important part of this, though, and this was part of our interview with Howard Lutnick. I'd love to just play this quick clip. Howard Lutnick (00:34:45): What I'm doing is I'm saying, okay. I gotta collect tariffs. Right? So I go to one of the great software companies of the earth, and I say, want you to give me you're going to build for me for America. You're going build the greatest customs processing ever. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:02): But what's incredible is you're convincing these companies to basically, like, do right for America and build this software for you. Do think that's going be a movement throughout the government, or is that? Howard Lutnick (00:35:11): Here's the idea. I say, build it for me for free. Yeah. I put it in for free. I don't know. What other countries in the world do think gonna buy now? Right. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:21): If it works for us. Howard Lutnick (00:35:22): Well, remember, you have to you have to connect to me. Yeah. So every country's gonna Chamath Palihapitiya (00:35:27): lie. Right. This is awesome. He's really saying is there are all kinds of companies that are doing all kinds of work who Google famously has this 20% time. Could you imagine if some of this 20% time was allocated to rebuilding the core infrastructure of America and giving back to the country that gives you the ability to have a multi trillion dollar company? That's but one example. So when you connect the dots, the way that I interpret it is that I think companies will be much more aggressive on m and a. Jason, it's what you've been asking for. I think you're gonna get it. And I think the reason why you're gonna get it is you're gonna have a open minded administration that'll let the m and a happen. But, also, there are ways where you can build goodwill by doing the kinds of things that Howard is talking about. I mean, could you imagine if somebody volunteered, let's say, Palantir, and said, hey. We can build the following software for the IRS so that we can just completely automate tax returns. And it's okay for Palantir. This is still a $200,000,000,000 company. They could allocate a small amount of time and get that done if Oracle stepped up and said something. So and all of that goodwill will then allow America to just grow faster. And then under that economic umbrella, a little consolidation is not necessarily a bad thing. So I'm really interested in how all of these pieces move together. That's that's the one thing I get. But I'd like to say something else very narrowly about Wiz, which is Wiz does not do something that's necessarily unique, meaning there are other products in market, But they have done one thing better than everybody else, and I think it's really worth rewarding, which is they have incredible taste. So if you use it, and all my engineers at eighty ninety live inside of this regime. When I asked them, hey. We need to implement something. They all picked Wizz. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:23): And if you ask them why and if you ask our sysadmin why did we implement it, not only is it good, but it is the most beautiful, it is the most intuitive, it's the most well integrated. And it's just an incredible lesson where even when other people do this other thing, you can build $32,000,000,000 of value by just doing that thing in a more coherent way. Jason Calacanis (00:37:45): I mean, design matters. Right? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:47): I think and having taste and having taste matters. Jason Calacanis (00:37:49): It's so great Chamath Palihapitiya (00:37:51): that that was rewarded. Jason Calacanis (00:37:53): Cyan, what do you think of what I'll call Lutnick's lighthouse customer approach? In other words, make this piece of software for the US government will become your first customer, the lighthouse that pulls in other customers For free. And for free. So we get it for free. We help you set the standard, and then you get to use us as your reference client. Let's start with that. Thoughts on on that, and then we'll get into m and a. Cyan Bannister (00:38:18): I I think that the government has long relied on private industry to solve some of its biggest problems, and that's what sets us apart from other countries in the world. And so, you know, you look at some of the best companies like SpaceX, Andoril, etcetera. We need more companies like this if we're going to compete. And so doing this absolutely makes sense. And it's just gonna help the sales cycle to get that sort of stamp of approval that, you know, our government is using that software. Jason Calacanis (00:38:47): Freiburg, your thoughts on Lutnick's Lighthouse strategy. Could it work? David Friedberg (00:38:53): Yeah. I think this is what makes it good to have, you know, as we talked about earlier, folks with high executive function and business experience and acumen in key leadership positions in the government so they know how to drive kind of better economic outcomes, negotiating the price of a contract down and saying, in this case, give it to us for free. One of the things Lutnick said in the interview, which you didn't see in this clip, is that the government can actually accept for free contracts, these gratis contracts, and you don't need to go get approval to do it so they can operate in the executive branch. Jason Calacanis (00:39:31): Oh, that makes total sense. Right? You don't need an approval if it's gratis. That makes total David Friedberg (00:39:36): That's right. Jason Calacanis (00:39:36): Yeah. That makes sense. So then David Friedberg (00:39:37): that that that's also a big unlock. Jason Calacanis (00:39:39): Yeah. Well, then I guess we can contrast this, Chamath, with Tim Waltz, you know, VP potential VP candidate. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:39:48): Have a real problem with this clip, Jason. Jason Calacanis (00:39:50): This was the most infuriating thing I've ever seen from a politician. I mean, Tim Waltz gets on stage, pulls out his stock app, and starts mocking the greatest American car company ever created and that its stock is down. This is dysgraciad.com to me. Play the clip, Tim Walz (00:40:11): I know some of you know this on the iPhone. They've got that little stock app. I added Tesla to it to give me a little boost during the day. Jason Calacanis (00:40:20): $2.25 and dropping. So Tim Walz (00:40:25): and if you own one, if you own one, we're not blaming you. You can take dental floss and pull the Tesla thing off, you know, and take out Jason Calacanis (00:40:35): I mean, Shammoth, you wanna talk about this communist scumbag and what he did there? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:40:39): No. I'm not gonna say anything personal except to say that I think that it is incredibly low brow. At the end of the day, he represents the American people. He needs to be firmly on team America. I don't think he understands this because he's never actually had a real job, but the auto industry is a vibrant part of how many, many, many Americans earn their living. Tesla employs a 25,000 plus employees. There is no reason a politician should be wishing any American company to fail, period. I just think that should be the price of entry. And so Yeah. To lack the basic decorum and understanding and then to whip people up into wanting any American company to fail. There are many American companies, sure, I like or dislike. Whatever. It's not the point. There are some that I'll buy the stock of. There are some that I would not. That's not the point. You cannot openly and actively be cheering as a politician at least for these things to fail. That, I think, is just incredibly low brow. Jason Calacanis (00:41:47): I I think it's the bottoming out of the Democratic Party. That moment will be looked at as the bottom. Syan, any thoughts? Cyan Bannister (00:41:52): I think it's incredibly low brow. I agree with Chamath, and I think it's just so distasteful for, you know, a public official to do something like that in especially for an American company. And if you hear the people cheering in the background, it's obvious that there's a base that supports this and that frightens me even more. Because he's saying these things because his constituents believe it. And a politician says these things because they think it's gonna motivate them to vote for them in the future. And that really frightens me, that we are riling people up to cheer on the destruction of American company and possibly go out and burn cars. You know, I think Well, Jason Calacanis (00:42:31): that's the that's a Cyan Bannister (00:42:32): real good Jason Calacanis (00:42:33): point, Cyan. Yeah. But the because whenever you incite, like, this kind of aggressiveness and by the way, both sides do it. You get a contingent who takes it too far, Freiberg. Maybe we wrap up on this, and then we can jump back to Wiz. Sorry for the diversion. David Friedberg (00:42:47): I think the Democratic Party, has split into two parties. There's the Democratic Party with beliefs, and there's the Democratic Party without beliefs. I think that the Democratic Party with beliefs is the one that's very far left, and their beliefs are fundamentally rooted in concepts of socialism, Marxism. Yes. And they're very clear about those beliefs, that traditional power structures need to be dismantled, and assets and influence need to be commonly redistributed. The rest of the Democratic Party, which people call the moderate part of the party, actually don't really know what their beliefs are. When you talk to anyone in the Republican Party in a leadership position, you hear very clearly what their beliefs are. We saw it this week in DC. Every member of the cabinet that we met with, and there were quite a number of them, had the exact same message and the exact same set of beliefs of what this administration stands for and what they're trying to do. You may agree with those beliefs or you may not, but they have stated their beliefs. The problem is that because the moderates in the Democratic Party have not stated a set of beliefs, a set of objectives, a vision for the country, a vision for their party, the party is effectively being represented by this part of the party that does have beliefs, the deeply socialist Marxist beliefs, and they have basically subsumed the message. And as a result, this is why people have lost interest in the Democratic party because the moderate aspect has not been really clear on what their beliefs are. There's an opportunity for some of these moderate leaders in the Democratic Party like Dean Phillips, like and people may not like me saying this, but like Gavin Newsom, who I don't think is all the way over on that far left side of the, the spectrum to be really clear and paint a better vision and really state the beliefs of the party and what the beliefs are that differentiate them. And those beliefs, recently, the only thing that underscores what that party stands for is we're not the other guys. We're not the Republicans, and that's it. David Friedberg (00:44:42): And so people that don't like the Republicans are like, well, I don't know. Because then I'm subsumed by the socialist Marxist rhetoric. So I don't know if I wanna be a part of that either. And that's why I think a lot of people feel left out. And that's why I think the recent polling data, if you pull it up on the Democrats, it's like 23% or something in this country now. Jason Calacanis (00:44:58): It was like the thirties or something. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:45:00): Did you see the crazy clip that did the racial demographic split on some key issues like things like DEI? Jason Calacanis (00:45:06): Is this the one that says white college age women are just Yeah. Like this weird anyway, David Friedberg (00:45:11): I think Tim Waltz, like a lot of others, because there's no other beliefs to stand for, you end up being subsumed by the part of the Democratic Party that does have beliefs, and you don't have anything else to say to state and to to show what you're for. Jason Calacanis (00:45:23): And here's here's an idea too. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:45:25): It's a really good it's a really good framing. I really like that. Jason Calacanis (00:45:27): Well and here's another framing. Like, is it so hard to agree on something? Like, I think this is one of the brilliant things that Trump did was he's like, here are some things we can agree on, and he just subsumed those, like fighting for the working class person, saying no tax on tips. Like, these were democratic positions. I think this just proves that meme where it's like, can I get all standing here? And and the left just went too far away. David Friedberg (00:45:50): Yeah. They left. Everybody. Jason Calacanis (00:45:51): Yep. Let me give you a piece of advice. David Friedberg (00:45:53): To the Democratic party leadership that might be listening, the advice I would give you is basically take away the opportunity for the distinction that the Republicans have right now, which is a more efficient government, a more, you know, fair government where money isn't wasted, where your taxpayer dollars aren't being destroyed. The Democratic Party has an opportunity to stand up and say, we don't wanna have things like regulatory capture or this pork or inside stuff going on. They have an opportunity to make that the core set of beliefs that still aligns with reducing government and increasing efficiency in government. Efficiency in government should not be a party issue. By allowing the Republicans to say we're for efficient government, it implies that the Democrats now to be opposite of that are saying we're for inefficient government. And if the Democrats want to win this, they can actually take that message and say, you know what? We're for more efficient government, and the way we're gonna do it is get rid of things like regulatory capture and inside deals and all the other sort of stuff. It may you know, that may not kind of go, but there's an opportunity for the Democrats, I think, to really stand up and take the country in the direction that we all, as Americans, needed to go to, which is to have a sustainable federal government. And that's gonna require some degree of fiscal conservatism and action. But they could take a different point of view on how they do it. They could have core beliefs around that. Jason Calacanis (00:47:08): It's it's really and and by the way, Dean Phillips, we're inviting back on the program, Ezra Klein, Sam Harris. We wanna have some more people on the left come on here and maybe talk about this very issue. It's really three things they could work on. Number one, build 10,000,000 homes in this country that are affordable. That's a really key issue. Rich people should pay their fair share of taxes and reform the tax code. And then, third, health care for everyone. Those three would get this party back on track. We're gonna make a more efficient government. You're gonna be able to buy a home. You're gonna get health care, and rich people are gonna start paying their taxes, which they're not. And we're gonna stop with these crazy Trump tax breaks. That would be the perfect positioning. And it's not personal. It's just, hey. We're a rich enough come country that people should get health care. Why shouldn't people have health care in the modern world? Why can't these rich people who are donating tens of millions of dollars to Trump just pay some more taxes and and make sure poor people have basic health care? Sayenne, your thoughts? And then let's get back to the docket. Cyan Bannister (00:48:03): Well, I disagree with all those points, obviously, but sure, they could run on them. They have tried. They've they've definitely said we're gonna have, you know, health care for all. You know, selling the American dream of homeownership, I actually think is flawed in many ways. We're putting people into debt and for things they can't afford and they get screwed. And so I just actually think they need to find a unifying, figure out who their moderates are and there's also politically homeless people, we didn't include them. There's these people who are just like, well, I can't vote right and I'm not left either anymore. So we've got to bridge this divide somehow and they've got to figure out the messaging, but I don't think going back to what they used to do is gonna work because they promised universal healthcare and it hasn't happened and they had plenty of opportunity to do so. Jason Calacanis (00:48:52): All right, let's get back to the Wizz deal and the docket here. Let's see if there's anything we didn't Well, I think David Friedberg (00:48:59): we just talk about you know, the price they paid, and we should talk about Jason Calacanis (00:49:04): How to do David Friedberg (00:49:04): that. The the strategic rationale and how others are gonna respond. Jason Calacanis (00:49:08): Alright. So looking at this, the deal got sweetened massively over the year between when the first offer was made for 23,000,000,000 and then went up to 32,000,000,000. The revenue roughly doubled since the time of the first offer. And then there's some really interesting things in the details. There's a huge breakup fee. We saw the breakup fee with Adobe and Figma. This one is tremendous. It's 10% of the deal size, $3,200,000,000 in cash. They don't get an investment. If this deal doesn't go through, Google has to give Wiz three point two billion dollars in cash. Let that sink in. This company is massively high growth, zero to a hundred million in their in eighteen months when they started. And last year, they passed 500,000,000 in ARR. You know, that puts the deal at roughly 60 times their run rate, and that is a high price. However, they're supposed to hit a billion in ARR this year, which would put it at 30 times forward looking or 32 times, which isn't outrageous because Google probably has, Friedberg, some concept or alphabet rather, some concept of how they could increase the velocity of that of that revenue. Yeah? Or that it would be a defensive position. One of those two. Yeah? David Friedberg (00:50:24): Yeah. I mean, just to put it in context, right, Google's cloud revenue is about 40,000,000,000 a year, and Microsoft and Amazon's are both kinda plus or minus a little bit around a hundred billion a year. And so Google has kind of been, as we know, lagging a little bit in the cloud market. The the thing about kind of enterprise sales is there's a common strategy, which is you kinda land with a beachhead, and then you kind of expand from there with additional products and services. This has been the reason so many enterprise software companies over time from Oracle to Salesforce to Microsoft have been acquisitive and can make acquisitions very synergistic. What that means is you can acquire a new product or a new service and then sell it into your install base or acquire the customers and then cross sell your existing products or services into their install base. And so you can increase the overall revenue by putting the two together and combining sales teams and being able to offer a combined offering. And so the theory here, and I think this is something I don't understand well enough, is that security has become such a kind of top requirement and and product category that it now effectively enables a beachhead type model to be successful, meaning you can cross sell the security into all of your existing customers, or there's enough new customers that Google might be acquiring from the Wizz acquisition that they can now bring new GCP services to and and cross sell into. Now to figure out how this actually has to make sense. So Google's ROIC is about 30%. That means that when they make an investment, a CapEx investment or capital investment, they expect to see about 30% of incremental profit per year come back at some point from that capital investment. The capital investment they're making here, again, this doesn't hit their income statement, goes on their balance sheet. It gets marked mostly as goodwill. So Google's gonna have a 32,000,000,000 move from cash down to goodwill. So now they've got this asset on their balance sheet, and they've gotta make an incremental $10,000,000,000 a year profit. David Friedberg (00:52:34): So you kinda gotta do the math. $10,000,000,000 a year of incremental profit against 40,000,000,000 of cloud revenue and against 1,000,000,000 of Wizz revenue, there's a lot to be kind of built here to make this make financial sense. So then it becomes, okay. Well, that's a really hard one to kind of think that they're gonna get there very soon. But remember, Google's made some investments Chamath Palihapitiya (00:52:55): like I think it's a very tricky you said it earlier, actually. It's a Trojan horse into the other clouds. The, you know, the reason Wizz exists, and Jason mentioned this upfront, is because of the value that it creates in a multi cloud, multi tenant environment across Azure and GCP and and AWS. And when the deal was done, one of the things that Wiz said is, hey. Don't worry. We're not gonna prefer GCP. And it was interesting because I thought, wait. People actually thought that they would just prefer GCP. No. It's the exact opposite of why Google would want this because now what you have are your tentacles. Like, think of any other service that any cloud provider provides where most of your revenue is coming from the other clouds. Can you name one? Well, it didn't exist until now. And so I think the strategic rationale is quite clever, which is you start to gain customer traction and workloads in all of these other environments. And I suspect that TK is smart enough to try to pull these workloads back into GCP. So that that's, like, I think probably like Jason Calacanis (00:53:59): Because they were you're saying, Shabbat, they would have the data. They would be able to see from Wizz. Like, hey. Look. Of course. 90% of this this type of job is existing on Oracle or it's over here on AWS or Azure. Of you Chamath Palihapitiya (00:54:11): would do that if you're running Google Cloud. Course. Of is smart enough, and they're not gonna pay and, David, by the way, the other thing that I would say is, I think this is where bankers get this totally wrong as the observer watching a deal like this is it's never about the rate of change when you're trying to do a deal. It's always about the rate of change of the rate of change. And the most incredible thing that Wizz had going for itself was that they were basically doubling in months. So the time to double at that scale, you can do any kind of fantastical model with that kind of raw input. Because when that boundary condition is true and you're trying to, you know, deescalate or scale down or weigh down a model, you're still gonna get crazy gargantuan numbers that when you discount them back, gets them to this price. So, I mean, congrats to these guys. I don't you know, I would love to find out how does whiz because this is I mean, I'm sure you guys have this question too. How do you build a sales infrastructure that can scale that productively that quickly? That's an incredible thing. You know? Jason Calacanis (00:55:12): Yeah. I wonder if How do you do that? People are I wonder if it's a lot of self serve. Absolutely. It's gotta be self serve. Use it. It's gotta be. Yeah. Some percentage of it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:19): I mean, I'll tell you our experiences. We had a guy that had to come in and sell it into us, and we David Friedberg (00:55:23): had a little bit of a bake off. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:55:24): And I don't know. Maybe we were unique, and there's a simpler lower scale product that's just more pay go? Jason Calacanis (00:55:31): Consumption. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? Cyan, looking at this, I'm curious your take on big VC because the series a, hundred million dollar round, we don't have the valuation for it. The b was at 1,700,000,000.0 a year later, so maybe we assume it was a $500,000,000 valuation for 20%, something like that. I would guess Maybe a 600,000,000 post. Sequoia Insight Index, CyberStarts all did that series a. When you look at the BCD and E, those same players all participated. This is another example of sometimes your best next investment as a VC firm is the highest growth outlier in your existing portfolio. Your thoughts on what this means Completely. Of venture capital and maybe the long jam that we saw over the last four years, five years of no m and a. And may because we you and I came up when, like, it was a golden era of m and a, and then, you know, the IPO market started to open up with Airbnb, Coinbase, and, of course, Uber. Now we're sitting here. What could if this is the starter's pistol, what could it look like for the VC industry, which has just been dead? Cyan Bannister (00:56:38): Yeah. I'm gonna start with, you know, my thoughts on Wizz. I think this is really exciting for me because this is a great example of a contrarian investment. When this investment was initially made, there was not a lot of money going into security. There still isn't. It's an under invested category. And with AI and the threat of the types of things that can people can build and vibe coding and everything in between, you're gonna need better security. And so I'm excited to see that maybe this might become an investable category. Think this is the largest exit ever in the security space. Am I wrong? I mean, I think Jason Calacanis (00:57:13): I think you're probably correct. Yeah. I can't I don't think I've Cyan Bannister (00:57:16): ever heard of anything this large. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:18): M and A wise, absolutely. Cyan Bannister (00:57:19): Yeah. So, you know, how does this impact M and A? I mean, it's still pretty slow out there. You know, some action's better than no action, but like Niantic was just bought by Scopely. We're starting to see Chamath Palihapitiya (00:57:30): some You Jason Calacanis (00:57:30): were an angel investor in that, right? Was. That was the Pokemon GO folks. I remember you showing me Pokemon GO over a decade ago. Yeah. That's amazing. That's a Saudi company that bought it? It looks like a Saudi conglomerate. Cyan Bannister (00:57:40): Yeah. That's a Saudi conglomerate. And so that exited for 3,700,000,000.0. And, you know, I I think we're gonna start seeing some movement, especially with the new administration. When we Jason Calacanis (00:57:51): were you in that deal? How many years were you in that deal? Cyan Bannister (00:57:54): Oh, my gosh. As soon as they spun out when Alphabet formed and spun them out as their own entity, I there's a funny story for another time about how I got into the deal. But I I realized it was my only opportunity to get in as early as possible, and so I stalked the founder and sat at his door and Jason Calacanis (00:58:11): Oh, tell us the story. Okay. Cyan Bannister (00:58:12): Alright. Well Jason Calacanis (00:58:13): Permission permission granted. You can't say it's a great story, but Cyan Bannister (00:58:16): it's a great story. So before Pokemon Go, they had this game called Ingress. And I started playing it with my friends, and I started noticing that my friends were doing some really unusual things. They were like charting helicopters, and like traveling all over the world to cast these invisible triangles over the earth. Basically, it's a game of green versus blue, and who can cast the biggest triangle. I was like, why are these people spending so much time? And not only that, but why are they going around taking pictures of points of interest for Google? Like what is Google actually doing with this asset was my number one question. So I realized that Ingress was part of a bigger mapping plan. I mean, if you look at the team, you look at John Hankey, they all come from Keyhole, and they're obviously part of the maps team and helped build Google Earth. So this wasn't just a game. Pokemon Go was a joke. It was basically an April fool's joke where the founder of Pokemon said, wouldn't it be cool if like we put Pokemon on the map and we just tried to find them? And John Henke's like, yeah. Like, let's turn this into an Ingress like game. I went around telling everybody, like, if I had a chance to invest in anything, it would be Niantic. And because they were part of Google, I thought there was no chance. And then I got a call one day and they said, hey, my friend of mine was like, did you hear Niantic spun out? I was like, oh my gosh, I don't know anyone at Google. How do I reach John Hanke? And I realized I'd invested in this company called Hentwater, and they were giving out game codes on the bottle cap. And I was setting up her ticketing system one day and helping her out in her office, and I saw all these tickets coming in with a subject line that said Ingress Game Code, and I was like, what is this all about? And I just connected the dots and she introduced me to John Hanke, and then I went there with two engineers because I figured I gotta show up with some value here. Two badass engineers who were players. We sat on the front stairs and basically sat there and and said, please take our money. Cyan Bannister (01:00:06): He's like, I don't need you. I've got Nintendo. I've got Google. I've got and we're like, no. You really need us. And he gave one of those engineers a job offer pretty much that day. He gave me a key card to the office. And so I can come and go from Niantic as I please, which is pretty awesome. Jason Calacanis (01:00:21): But it's it's just a fun story, you know? Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, this is what it takes to get in deals in Silicon Valley. Alright. The Fed held rates steady on Wednesday. Markets have been digesting this, pretty flat. The second consecutive meeting, of course, where the Fed held rates steady. This is after the two consecutive cuts in September basis points in September, and then obviously 25 in December. And we had this high hopes that there would be, you know, four or five of these cuts this year, and there are apparently none right now. Trump posted on truth social that he urged the Fed to cut rates to create a smoother transition for his tariffs. The tariffs are taking place, I believe, on April 2 is that date that's gonna change the history of The United States forever. And so there were some other interesting takeaways. They lowered expectations on rate cuts. They expect two quarter point cuts for the rest of 2025. This would take us down to about 4%. Your thoughts, Shamaf? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:01:21): Let's add some color from Scott Besson. One of the biggest mistakes that I think Janet Yellen affected was this continued issuance of money on the short end of the curve to finance these deficits, which gives you, you inherit an incredibly difficult challenge I think over the next nine months, I think there's like 9 or 10,000,000,000,000 that has to get refinanced. Do you want to talk about that? Scott Besson (01:01:47): Look, thought that when rates were low, you're supposed to term out rates. Jason Calacanis (01:01:53): Exactly. Scott Besson (01:01:54): And instead the treasury for the past few years has pulled rates in. And I think part of that was to keep rates lower, that they changed the issuance schedule when rates move back up towards 5%. I have maintained that policy, but I'm maintaining it because let's go back to David's question. When when are you going when are we gonna see the results from this the getting the government spending under control? And I don't think the markets recognize it yet. Jason Calacanis (01:02:33): Okay. Translated French, Chamath. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:02:36): So he's saying a couple things. He he he has inherited a problem that he hasn't quite yet changed. What is that problem? That problem is that when rates are low, you wanna borrow for as long as possible. Right? You don't wanna borrow for the shortest amount of time. And now that rates are high, you're in this difficult position where you have to refinance all of it at a much higher rate. That's effectively the net of it. What I took away, and you can see more and understand more when you watch this whole interview with Friedberg and I. But I think that there has been a fundamental disconnect and break from the Fed and the rest of treasury and the government. And I think that Scott was very clear. Like, he views that as an independent organization, and it should continue that way. But it was very clear to me that they are singing from their own hymn book, and it just doesn't seem to me that Powell really understands the gravity of this situation. And I don't think that he's really willing to play ball. So he's probably on the margins. Again, this is my total interpretation of this. Would rather wait longer than necessary because I think it's it's almost like a political gambit, and I think that that's very dangerous. That's, again, just my own interpretation. I just do not think that Powell, a, has the data to make a very clear decision and, b, will act unless it's totally necessary. So I think this there's an overcorrection here that's happening, which I think is dangerous. And I think it's gonna slow down the pace of cuts, which I think will then create a lot of other pressure in the economy. Jason Calacanis (01:04:20): Well, Dave, I'll drop it drop it to you. The Fed's mandate as an independent organization is full employment, and that 2% target, which we've talked about before here, was just a number that was picked by an economist in New Zealand of all places. It's it's not like it's some specific dosage that is perfect, but it is their mandate. They're not supposed to be a political organization. So what are your thoughts on this situation, and these high rates, which we have to pay for our debt? David Friedberg (01:04:51): We've never been in a situation where in a hundred days, a federal government is setting out to cut their spending by a trillion dollars, which has a significant effect, a recessionary effect on the economy because there's less federal dollars flowing out, which goes as revenue into various businesses and income for a lot of people that are employed as contractors or directly by federal government agencies, coupled with, for the first time in a hundred years, a significant change in the policy for tariffs for goods flowing into The United States and whether that will reduce spending by consumers or drive up the cost of products by consumers. And we talked extensively about both of these issues with Bessent and Lutnick in DC this week. And if I'm the fed, I don't really have a great proxy historically for saying when this was done in the past, here's what the effect would be on GDP. Here's what the effect would be on inflation. Here's what the effect is going to be on, employment. In fact, folks like Lutnick are making the case that the current measure of GDP is probably not even correct. The way we measure it, the way we count it. And so the traditional economist's point of view on making rate adjustments as a function of economic contraction or growth may be wrong. So I think there are quite a lot of these kind of confounding factors that the Fed is in a very wait and see mode. What I would look to is the bond market, which also seems to be in a kinda wait and see mode. So remember right before the election, the bond market traded the ten year up so that rates went down to about 3.65%. About a month ago, the tenure was at 4.5%, and today, it's at 4.22%. And so in the last month, we've seen rate on the tenure decline by about a quarter point or about, 30 basis points. And so the bond market is giving some kind of opening to the Fed saying, look. We expect that this is gonna be deflationary. David Friedberg (01:07:07): This is gonna be recessionary. We are expecting you to cut rates to the Fed. And so that's what the bond market is saying. And now I think we're gonna start to wait for the reports that are gonna start to come out, that are gonna show the impact. I don't think we're gonna know immediately. So I think the first hundred days of this presidency and this administration's actions are gonna be pretty telling on what's gonna happen going forward in terms of the effect on employment, on inflation, and on GDP, contraction or growth. And then I think the market will know how to handicap those numbers in the future based on actions by the administration. Right now, we're still in a, like I don't know how when you put all these things together or what it does, and it's a lot happening real fast. And so wait and see. Jason Calacanis (01:07:56): Yeah. Saying, I'm not sure if the Fed and, you know, the people in the administration can't communicate the strategy perfectly well and the Fed can interpret it. I don't know that we're gonna solve it here, but any any thoughts on this? David Friedberg (01:08:10): Don't know if they're not communicating it well. Bessett did that. It's the effect that it will have ultimately on the economy and over what time scale. That's what's uncertain right now. Sorry. Jason Calacanis (01:08:17): Go ahead. Specifically, the tariffs. I mean, you know, if they're on, they're off, to what extent? You know, I don't it doesn't feel like the entire administration is on the same page. That's just, you know, based on everybody I've talked to. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:08:29): The Fed is not part of the administration. Jason Calacanis (01:08:31): Of course not. Yes. They're independent. Yeah. And the quote today in Chamath Palihapitiya (01:08:34): the Wall Street Journal, Nick, you can look for it, is Powell's statement basically blamed rising inflation in the short term period on exogenous factors. He said our job was getting the job done, and now there's exogenous inflation. And I think what he's pointing to are these potential tariffs or something. So I think it's it's less that they're not coordinated. I think that they are on very different pages, and I don't think the Fed wants to play ball. Sorry, Cyan. And then I have a Jason Calacanis (01:08:57): story at Cyan Bannister (01:08:57): the end. Just quickly, you know, one of the things that really concerns me is how we've been so high on cheap supply for so long. Like, if you look at Sheehan and Timu before this podcast, I went and looked up that their prices are up by 27% or something like that. And so when you used to be able to get a garment for $18 you're now paying $37 and Zara is like 75 for an equivalent. And I think people really liked getting packages in the mail and feeling like their dollar went further and it's not going far and so when you have a bunch of people who can't buy anything and consumerism is a big part of our, unfortunately in some ways, our culture, what does that do to our country? If you're looking around, there's urban blight everywhere in retail and we can't fill our malls, we don't have brick and mortar stores, they're shutting down, Forever twenty one just shut down. These Jason Calacanis (01:09:49): are Cyan Bannister (01:09:49): the types of things that you know, people really care about is whether, in a time where, you know, you do have a recession, people want to buy a tube of lipstick or a dress to feel better about their life. And right now they can't even do that. And so that's that's what concerns me is thinking about the retail future and then, you know, the consumer landscape of how this all affects everybody. Jason Calacanis (01:10:12): Yeah. And consumer confidence is not good right now. People are feeling, like, a little bit concerned about it. And this immigration plays into this. We're supposed to be deporting 20,000,000 people. Maybe it's only gonna be a million. Who knows about that issue? Who's gonna actually work in these factories? Are people getting laid off, or are they not getting laid off? Like, there's just a soup of issues here that makes the Fed's job extremely difficult. So in an extremely difficult, confusing storm, what is the best thing to do when you're driving the storm is just maybe try to keep the car going straight, not hit the brakes, or not hit the gas. And that's what they're doing. They're taking a wait and see. And let's see if the administration can be a little bit crisper, I think, in their delivery of what their plan is because it does seem chaotic to me. And people here might disagree. Shomma, you said you had an anecdote? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:10:59): Well, I I kind of disagree with you in one way. I I just think the Fed has totally lost a script, and I don't think they're I don't think they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Jason Calacanis (01:11:07): What should they be doing? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:11:09): What they should be doing is actually observing the fact that there is some very complicated money flows. The front end of the curve makes no sense. The back end of the curve hasn't gone down long enough. They sat around, and they allowed treasury to basically pump trillions of short term paper. So they were complicit in what Yellen did, and it it's inconceivable that they didn't understand that strategy. And so it's inconceivable. Jason Calacanis (01:11:33): So what's the future? Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:11:34): So what do you do when you have a is recalcitrant the right word? You know? Like, let's let's just say you just have an organization that refuses to play ball. Again, there was a really interesting anecdote where Bessent talked, this is in the interview, about how he really wants to deregulate and loosen up bank lending standards, particularly at the community level. And I think that this is one very interesting thing that is a workaround to the Fed. Why? Because if you think about where money gets transacted on a ten to twenty to thirty year duration, Those are the big boys. They're making big capital plays. Right, guys? But where is, like, the where's where do you play for the two month to two year kind of thing? It's smaller stuff. It's the stuff that's required to get small businesses off the ground. It's the community lending standards that actually allow communities to thrive. And so I think Scott realizes that if the Fed's not gonna really play ball, how do you loosen credit? How do you make sure that that money's available, Jason, to make sure that you can fight off a recession? You have to give it to these smaller banks, and he was pretty clear about that. So I think that that's so it's almost as if the Fed is just gonna get relegated to this, like, random organization. Like, yeah, they'll control reverse repo, but they just won't have any credibility. And maybe that's not a bad thing actually in the end. Jason Calacanis (01:12:57): Freiberg, it's your chance to shine. We have not one, but we have two amazing space stories in Science Corner. First up, SpaceX successfully rescued two astronauts. And when they landed, there were dolphins breaching around the capsule. It was absolutely magical to see. Congratulations to the SpaceX team on that. And then Firefly Aerospace completed its moon mission after achieving the first commercial soft lunar landing. Take it whichever way you want, Freiberg. Which one of these do you wanna start with? And and then, maybe we'll we'll open the discussion up to a little bit broader discussion about the moon itself. David Friedberg (01:13:35): SpaceX was able to rescue the the two astronauts that were stranded by the Boeing Starliner debacle nine months ago. We talked about it on the show. You can go back and Jason Calacanis (01:13:47): watch the episode. Ninety two one ninety two in August. David Friedberg (01:13:49): Episode one ninety two. Yeah. And so having spent far more on the Starliner program than on the Crew Dragon program, the Starliner program is gone now. It's basically done. And the Crew Dragon program has now done 16 crewed flights to space, 11 for NASA, four private commercial flights, and continues to perform. So congratulations to the SpaceX team on making it to ISS and bringing the astronauts home. Another successful mission for SpaceX. Jason Calacanis (01:14:23): You know, there's a lot of hand wringing. Oh my god. You know, conflict of interest, Elon with SpaceX and Doge and being close to the administration. When we look at what SpaceX has accomplished, I'm not a shareholder, but I know you are, Chamath. I'm not sure if Cyan Bannister (01:14:38): there other folks in Jason Calacanis (01:14:39): the panel. You are as well, Syen? I am as well. Okay. Congratulations, everybody. But putting aside our personal investments, when you look at how much they've reduced the cost, is anybody even close to matching their cost to getting to space? Great kind of, like Great question. Out the whole the whole hand wringing around the conflict of interest with SpaceX both on Starlink and on this seems ridiculous because their price is so cheap. It it makes no sense to even complain about it. We should just be giving Elon a high five and saying thanks for charging us such a low rate. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:15): It's a great question. David Friedberg (01:15:17): Sihan, you wanna take it? Cyan Bannister (01:15:18): Well, you know, obviously, Boeing is the big loser here. You've barely gotta you know, it's interesting to me how bad they just fumbled this. And then there's the political element. I don't know if we wanna get into it about how we weren't able to save these astronauts and they were stuck up there. You know, we we were seeing it landing in the water, but what you're not seeing is they couldn't walk when they got out and they were only supposed to be there for what, like ten days? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:15:42): And Eight days and it ended up eight months or something. Cyan Bannister (01:15:44): Yeah. Eight months, which is horrendous because one of the things that I believe that America stands for is we don't leave people like that. And it's an American issue, not a political one. And so there's no reason why we shouldn't have engaged SpaceX sooner, it was offered, and they turned it into a completely political issue, and Boeing fumbled the ball. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:16:04): Really Cyan Bannister (01:16:04): awesome. So, I think hopefully this is a message that's loud and clear, and one of the things I'm so excited about is little kids watching this and seeing this, and what it means for the future of our country, because they're looking up to people like Elon, and they're gonna be the next political class in the future, and that will matter. Know, this is the equivalent of moon landing, And to see somebody in private enterprise do what Elon has done is just outstanding. So that's basically my comment on it. Jason Calacanis (01:16:32): Any thoughts on the cost versus conflict of interest, I guess, hand wringing? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:16:36): Look. There's there's a couple of startup alternatives. I'll put alternatives in quotes because they're not really GA. They're not generally available. They're not really launching. They're still in this early experimentation phase. One is blue origin, and the second is relativity space. The problem with both of those two approaches well, the the feature of both of those two approaches is theoretically that there's a a different economic model there. But the reality is that SpaceX is the only company that has consistently been able to take these costs and just crunch them down to, like, more than one launch a day this year, I think. Like, it's just an incredible scale and pace. So, no, there is no economic alternative. They are the absolute cheapest in the market. I mean, I'll tell you a very quick story. I was also an investor in relativity. I think I owned about 10% of the company. And I just got recapped out of that business because they needed a lot more money than folks were willing to give it. And then Eric Schmidt just stepped up and offered, I think, $3,000,000,000 to the business. And I kind of said, no. I'm I'm done. I'm out of here. So, you know, I Jason Calacanis (01:17:43): Recaps are painful. You you put all that money in. I mean Chamath Palihapitiya (01:17:46): I think I took, like, a $380,000,000 loss. So it was not a it was not a good week two weeks ago. But, anyways, that's not the point. The point is SpaceX is the best. There is nobody even close. The next closest alternative is years and years away. Would we benefit from more capacity? Sure. But the reality is they are the only solution, and they're safe, and they're reliable. And what Syed said is so true. When the hell does America just abandon people? Why why do you why do you do that, especially in space of all places? Cyan Bannister (01:18:18): Like places. Jason Calacanis (01:18:21): I mean, that that is Cyan Bannister (01:18:22): really our Mark Watney story, like, Martian. Like, he would Look. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:18:26): You have WNBA you have WNBA players that get put in Russian jail. We're willing to swap them for arms dealers in the last administration. Jason Calacanis (01:18:35): Pretty good insight. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:18:37): Fine. So we didn't abandon her, but then we let these two people flounder. I I just think it's really inexcusable. That makes Jason Calacanis (01:18:45): no sense. There definitely needs to be an investigation into what happened there. A lot of speculation. It doesn't look good. I'm gonna take Elon as a word that he offered. I mean, I don't see any reason why he would The astronauts even Cyan Bannister (01:18:57): confirmed that he offered. Jason Calacanis (01:18:58): Oh, they did? Okay. Yeah. I mean, I know that people were saying, like, unconfirmed if the Biden administration assumed. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:19:04): They they were like, that's their way of saying, come get me. Cyan Bannister (01:19:07): Yeah. Please come get me. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:19:08): They're like, I'm literally withering away in space. Please come get me. Jason Calacanis (01:19:11): They put their thumbs up. Okay. Come pick us up. Freeburg, take us to the next story, and then we're we're gonna get a wrap here. David Friedberg (01:19:19): This is basically what I think is gonna end up being the story over the next couple of years is Okay. The space race between effectively SpaceX's platform and technology versus China, which has effectively ripped off SpaceX as this is kind of being described here in this article. So you can kinda take a look at the Long March nine rocket is what they call it. Fully reusable first stage powered by 30 of their particular engines, which is comparable to SpaceX's first stage being powered by 33 Raptor engines, also fueled with methane and liquid oxygen, each with a thrust of about 280 tons compared to the Chinese at 200 tons. This is kind of a very kind of equivalent design. Jason Calacanis (01:20:03): Right. Here's a look at it. Yeah. And there's the model of the reusable David Friedberg (01:20:07): Yeah. So this is the Long March nine. This is their super heavy lift rocket that they kind of first started talking about, call it, a decade ago. The rocket has three stages, solid motors. They've recalibrated the design, and it effectively has now kind of become a clone of Starship. And so this whole system is gonna be the big race. And as we know, the way the Chinese operate when it comes to kind of industrialization is they can move fast. They can move big. They can move heavy. They can dedicate resources. They can dedicate an entirely vertically integrated supply chain to achieving an objective. So this will end up being kind of, I think, the big race over the next couple of years. Jason Calacanis (01:20:44): Labor. Think they've got a lot of resources at their fingertips. David Friedberg (01:20:48): You can kinda say that, but I I don't know. You know, a lot of people use slave labor in China as kind of a handwavy way of describing their competitive advantage. But I I I think this is really important. China has actually much more of an advantage in automation. And so if you look at many Chinese factories that everyone assumes are cheap because they have cheap slave labor, which is kind of the Western general kind of media perception of what goes on over there. There's actually a lot of automation and engineering that's gone into building these systems that allow them to have much higher throughput at much lower cost. And I think that this is a really kind of key point that the Chinese kind of industrial base and their manufacturing base is so superior to The United States in this moment in time that The US has to figure out a way to build its manufacturing base up to be competitive in an age of automation, not on a kind of labor to labor system, but on a system of production to system of production basis. And so this is really where we are lagging deeply as a country, and it is part of you saw JD Vance's speech this week on revitalizing kind of manufacturing in The United States, but it has to be advanced manufacturing. It's not just about opening a warehouse and putting Jason Calacanis (01:21:58): Which means robots. It's not humans in it because we're David Friedberg (01:22:01): It means both. It means both. But it's about smarter systems. It's about designs on how you do manufacturing. It's about using new things like three d printing, like automation, coupled with great labor, coupled with great people working. But it's about designing entirely new ways of doing manufacturing. And we've stalled out over the last three decades in The United States as we globalized and we handed off all manufacturing to the East, and The United States basically just imported manufactured goods while they invested in all of the infrastructure to to deliver advanced manufacturing at scale. And so we've got a lot of catching up to do. Otherwise, China will get ahead of us in any product faster than we will ever be able to kind of stay ahead of the game on. And I think we're seeing that in the space race now, and it's definitely worth taking note that this is kind of one core example of this advantage that they've developed for themselves. Cyan Bannister (01:22:51): I'm concerned about the cultural stuff of this. Like, America is so ill equipped, especially with this wave of the last eight years of DEI and and how it's infiltrated all of our institutions and how we raise our children in this country. Like, we taught them that math is racist. While China is you know, their kids are the leaders in AI. You know, deep seek should show us that, you know, we have underestimated China every step of the way. And I think it's just a tragedy. I'm working on a book that's coming out called The War on Science, which will actually expose, a friend of mine wrote it, it's a collection of essays, exposes just how entrenched this became in every institution from medical, science, etcetera. Like how do we recover from that? Is how we can compete with China because otherwise we can't. You know, I really honestly don't understand how we're gonna do it if we don't. And part of it is seeing these space launches. You know, obviously, the next generation of children will be inspired by that, but we have a gap of about eight to ten years where we lost that advantage. Jason Calacanis (01:23:53): I mean, in San Francisco, we saw it up close and personal. Right? They banned AP math. I mean, what lunatics could ever I mean, I guess the lunatics in San Francisco could literally justify that it was, you know, some massive inequality that the smart kids got to take harder courses. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:24:12): Flash the thing Lunatic from NBC, Nick. We know who's responsible for it. Jason Calacanis (01:24:16): Are you blaming white women, college educated white women? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:24:20): I'm just saying look at the data. Okay. What what is go what what is going on here? Like Jason Calacanis (01:24:25): For those of you not watching, it's a voter's opinion. White men, no degree. White men, college degree. White women, no degree. White women, college degree. And, yeah, DEI plus 53 no. Plus 31. Yeah. By the way. For white women in college. Yeah. NBC News poll. Yeah. This is not from, yeah, like a By the way, I'm organization here. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:24:48): Just to build on what you were saying. Yeah. It's math that was told was racist. In one of the best private schools here in in Silicon Valley, they taught the girls these are girls in the best all girls private school in Silicon Valley that reading was racist. Could you imagine? There was a spreadsheet that these kids had to memorize every day that had every other kid's pronoun. Mhmm. And if you didn't get it right, you'd get in trouble. Cyan Bannister (01:25:15): Well, not only that, but they are taught that you're either an oppressor or you're oppressed, and there's no other option. And so, like, if you go to one of these private nice schools, then you're automatically an oppressor. So think about that. If you're a kid and you're you're born bad, inherently bad, evil from birth, what does that What Chamath Palihapitiya (01:25:35): does that do? What does that do to your self Yeah. Your desire to actually do anything in society. Cyan Bannister (01:25:40): Have to fix that. I actually think it's one of the number one issues in our country is to get kids excited about being Americans again. We were talking about the democrat party, they don't love America on the far left, they hate America, and they're very loud and vocal about it. And so I'm glad that their, you know, their base is shrinking, but it needs to shrink further, and we need to have more unifying messages. And I think SpaceX could be one of those unifying messages where we bring people together and we encourage kids to think bigger about the future. Jason Calacanis (01:26:13): I'll tell you one anecdote. I have been hanging out at UT a little bit, the University of Texas and go Longhorns. And I've had three or four people of means, I'll say, you know, people who could afford to go to any college ask me, do you have any hookups at UT? I wanna take a tour. I wanna check this out. And I'm like, oh. And they're like, yeah. I just don't wanna send my kids to, you know, these, as Chamath has called them previously on the program, woke madrasas. I wanna send them to the South to be educated in Texas or somewhere, you know, where they're not going to learn to be part of Hamas or, you know, Al Qaeda. So there you have it, folks. Send your kids yeah. And send them to Cyan Bannister (01:26:59): a place that values free speech. Look there first. Look at the fire rating, and then that should tell you everything you need to know. Jason Calacanis (01:27:06): It's it's a it's a huge trend. It's a huge trend that people wanna go to these schools. David Friedberg (01:27:11): Getting back on track, I'll just give a quick shout out as well to Firefly, the Blue Ghost, lunar lander landed on March 2, lasted on the lunar surface for fourteen days, launched on January 15. They are launching two additional missions, mission two and mission three. Mission two is gonna launch in 2026. Back to the moon, '28 for mission three, all of which are doing kind of geologic surveying of the lunar surface. Obviously, the long term goal here is can we establish a base Jason Calacanis (01:27:40): on Jason. You're Yeah. Mission five is going directly to your dingleberries. They're gonna go live to get those dingleberries. I'm sorry. Sorry. Sayang, you shouldn't have heard that. We're just saying No. Cyan Bannister (01:27:56): It's fine. I don't care. Jason Calacanis (01:27:57): It's our tradition to talk about pre birth anus. Me you a question. Cyan Bannister (01:28:00): I have a 13 old boy sense of humor. It's fine. Jason Calacanis (01:28:03): You do. You always have, actually. David Friedberg (01:28:05): Would it would you guys be willing to go to Jason Calacanis (01:28:08): To your room. David Friedberg (01:28:08): Moon for a week? Would that be something you guys would do? Incident. Jason Calacanis (01:28:12): I'm going. I talked to my guy. %. Cyan Bannister (01:28:15): Got a guy? Jason Calacanis (01:28:15): Go. I'm know what you do. I talked to my guy. He said I could go out with him. So David Friedberg (01:28:19): do you guys have an interest in that? Like, is that something that you'd be motivated to do? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:28:22): %. Jason Calacanis (01:28:23): I am a % gonna do it when I'm 75. It's a great Chamath Palihapitiya (01:28:27): question about a week. A week seems like a very wow. Jason Calacanis (01:28:30): I would go for a month. David Friedberg (01:28:31): What about a day? Like, just a lunar Yeah. Day. Like, you go there. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:28:34): Like a lunar picnic? Yes. Yes. David Friedberg (01:28:35): A little picnic and then you come back? Jason Calacanis (01:28:37): Yeah. What would you bring? What are gonna bring? You bring a little chardonnay? What are you thinking would be would pair well with the dark side of the moon there, Jamal? What are you gonna bring? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:28:44): I'd bring, like, Jason Calacanis (01:28:46): What what should Sean make us when we go? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:28:48): Twenty twenty Lafan. I'd bring, like, a white burgundy. Jason Calacanis (01:28:51): Got it. Nick, can you make David Friedberg (01:28:52): an image of Chamath on the moon drinking wine? Can you figure out a way to do that, please? Chamath Palihapitiya (01:28:56): Thank Jason Calacanis (01:28:56): you. And what what what should we serve on the moon? What would be would you think we should go Chamath Palihapitiya (01:29:00): with fish? A little Jason Calacanis (01:29:01): surf and turf? Maybe surf and turf would be good. Chamath Palihapitiya (01:29:04): You know, people don't realize that white burgundy tastes great with meat. I know that people think you should always drink a very heavy red, but it's not true. I just want everybody to know. The more you know. Jason Calacanis (01:29:15): The more you know. Thanks for tuning in to the All In podcast. She's Cyan Bannister. I'm Jay Powell. He's Chamopay Papatia. And, of course, your sultan of science, David Friedberg. And, of course, thanks to, CEO John and producer Nick, everybody who put so much effort into it. And thanks to our partners for, yeah, supporting the show. We'll see you all next time. Love you guys. Podcast season. Bye bye. David Sacks (01:29:42): We'll let your winners ride. Jason Calacanis (01:29:47): Rain man David Sack. David Sacks (01:29:51): And instead, we open sourced it Jason Calacanis (01:29:52): to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with it.