戴夫·波特诺伊：Barstool 的爆发式成长与创始人模式

Dave Portnoy (00:00:00): People always ask me, we did not have people beating down our doors. Like, I always, one of the things I've heard throughout the course of Barstool, you should be making so much money here and doing this there and deals there. It's like, I'm looking. No one—I don't see these mythical deals everyone's talking about. Yeah. And there was no bidding war when Chernin came around. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:22): Alright, besties. I think that was another epic discussion. People love the interviews. I could hear and talk for hours. Absolutely. We crushed your questions a minute. We are giving people ground truth data to underwrite your own opinion. David Friedberg (00:00:34): What did you guys say? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:00:35): That was fun. That was great. David Friedberg (00:00:39): Dave Portnoy, thanks for joining us. Yep. Barstool. Dave, you obviously own and run a media business. I guess, best way to describe it. Barstool's got media franchises spanning sports, gambling, pizza reviews, and you've got a huge audience. You've been through an incredible corporate history, which I think one of the things we wanted to talk about today was talking about the business, if you're up for it. Yep. And talk a little bit about the history of the business. Super interesting to us when the acquisition happened with Penn and the subsequent buyback. We thought it was a super interesting story. We actually reached out and tried to have a conversation with you at that time about it, but unfortunately missed you. So we're really glad to have you here today. We hope to talk about that. Hope to talk about media, free speech, politics. I think there's a lot of stuff you've talked about that we often talk about that I think we'd love to just have a dialogue, and we'll see where this goes. Dave Portnoy (00:01:33): Sounds good. David Friedberg (00:01:34): Yeah. Welcome to the All-In Interview, and thanks for being with us. And, Chamath, anything you wanna start with? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:01:38): Tell us about just getting out of New York. Dave Portnoy (00:01:41): Yeah. So we were saying before, we relocated to New York in 2016 when Chernin bought half the company. And it was basically the concept was create a reality blog media type company, turn the lights on, see what happened, let everyone see into the company. And it was easier to get talent. We thought New York would attract people to work. And when athletes or entertainers come through, they usually stop in New York, and we can grab them into the office. So that's why I moved there. I don't think anybody in our company loved New York. It was not—I mean, I personally think it's a dirty city. I don't like it. I think it's just not my favorite cup of tea. And then I also got a lot of money. So once we were starting to get more money, and I guess fast forward, because when we did the second, the Penn deal, I was like, I'm not—the taxes are so crazy there. Florida, I went during COVID because it was an open state. That's really what initiated this whole thing is when COVID happened, New York locked down. Florida was pretty much open. So I went there, visited, and then kinda stayed there longer term during COVID. Black Lives Matter happened. A lot of things were happening in New York City, and I'm like, oh, I may stay in Miami. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:02:55): Were you the only shareholder when Chernin, when Peter bought 35 or whatever 40% of the business? David Friedberg (00:03:02): Peter bought 51, right, at that time? Dave Portnoy (00:03:04): 51%. So 4 employees of mine, I had given equity, like, hey. If something happens, you have small. It wasn't any—I don't even know if it's on paper. But for the most part, yes. I had given away 10 to 12% of the company to my long-term employees. David Friedberg (00:03:20): That was 2016. And when they bought, when Churnin bought 51%, was that a buyout, or was that money going into the company? Dave Portnoy (00:03:28): So they yeah. They valued the company at, I think, $12.5 million wildly. I didn't know what I was doing. They they really that was too low, but whatever. That's what they valued it for. I think I got about, if I recall, $3.5 million went to me personally, and then the rest went into the business account. David Friedberg (00:03:47): Right. And then you ran it, you moved it to New York, and you ran the business for a couple years. And, obviously, things took off. The business grew. Was Churnin Group, like, active at this time? Like, were they helpful, or was it you building the business and they were just kinda quiet financial sponsors? How Yeah. So how did that phase go? Dave Portnoy (00:04:07): So so when they when they purchased us, they basically gave the money. We did we weren't great at business. The first thing we did, we went out and hired Erika Nardini as CEO. So she really helped expand the business side of what we were doing, and we exploded. But Churnin, to answer your question, they weren't involved at all. I think they really I mean, slightly here or there if we had a question. I think the biggest thing they did is probably credibility. Like, I I was probably seen as, and still am at times, like a a wild card. Like, you don't know what you're dealing with. And you put the Churnin name on it. It's like, oh, these guys are legit. They're real. It maybe helped us get into meetings and doors, but they weren't in the day-to-day operations at all. Probably, I would say, the best thing they did is they stayed out of our way. David Friedberg (00:04:52): Well, that's crazy because they in, like, three and a half years, almost or maybe four years, you took the business from, like, $12.5 million valuation to, like, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:00): half a billion. This is the question I had. Yeah. The question is, Dave, when that business explodes, are you spending, like, a few minutes every day saying, goddamn. Why did I do this deal? Like or did you think it was really still worth it, you know, when the company goes Dave Portnoy (00:05:18): I never questioned it because, again, churn we did people always ask me, we did not have people beating down our doors. Like, I always one of the things I've heard throughout the course of Barstool, you should be making so much money here and doing this there and deals there. It's like, I'm looking. No one I don't see these mythical deals everyone's talking about. Yeah. And there was no bidding war when Chernin came around. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:05:42): So while understanding it, my biggest thing I've never Chamath Palihapitiya (00:05:42): sold the company. Dave Portnoy (00:05:42): I wasn't looking to sell. Understanding it, my biggest thing I've never sold the company. I wasn't looking to sell a company. When they approached us, they really were looking at, like, our gross revenue, and I didn't care about gross revenue at all. I care about making a profit and putting money in my pocket, and that's how we that's how we earned our living. They were basing our net worth. They give me, like, comps of other companies. I'm like, we are way bigger than they are, but they're like, well, they've gross sales and all this. It's like, well, they're losing money. Like, if you want, if I had a year to build up for that sale and I just wanted to inflate our gross revenue, I could've done that easily. I didn't. So we definitely sold it for far less, but at the same time, they were one of the only serious offers we had, and they stayed out of our way. They were kind of, in a way, the perfect partner outside the price because they let us do our thing. So I didn't regret it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:06:35): And so when the Penn deal came around, was that you saying, guys, we have to really think about this, or was that Churnin saying we need to think about this? David Friedberg (00:06:42): Before you get to the Penn deal, how did the growth, how did the business go crazy over that three and a half years? Did you invest a lot of capital at that time? I mean, how did the business go from, you know, 12 and a half to half a billion dollars? Is it that you shifted the strategy and said, hey, let's go after revenue now? Or did you expand? Dave Portnoy (00:06:59): I think it was probably two major things. Erica was a perfect hire and built out the business side, and people just totally underestimated us. Like, I knew how big we were. And in a weird way, I think a lot of times, even though people know us now, they still are kind of flabbergasted when you go under the hood and see our influence. Like, we've been around 20 years. So during the time that we sold, I always gave the analogy, and this is old Internet, but people throw numbers out and how big their audience was. And it's like if you're watching TV and someone has a remote control and they're just clicking every second, it's like everybody got one view. Like, my network has a view. My network has a view, and I'd be telling people, yeah, but ours aren't changing the channel. Like, they're what they're our viewers won. They're on the channel for 30 minutes listening. So our influence was just underestimated. And we did nothing on the business side. Like, we really were so busy creating content. You had to knock down our door to advertise with us. So when we changed that philosophy and, like, let's build out the business side, our tech, all of it with our existing audience. It was just kind of like a powder keg that exploded. It didn't shock me, to be honest. Granted, the original business plan said in five years, they wanted to sell it for, like, $50 million. That was the original business plan, and we got past that in, like, six months. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:08:20): But you guys decided to build, quote, unquote, in the wild. Like, you had cameras inside. You made stars of some of the people in there. Was that organic, or was that an explicit decision? You're like, this could be really interesting because these people are really odd characters. They look great for television. Dave Portnoy (00:08:36): Yeah. So it was organic in the sense I started Barstool. I didn't want anyone to know who I was. It was strictly business. It was supposed to be like a gambling rag, and I had fake names and all this. But in the early days of the newspaper, it slowly shifted that people were much more interested in the personalities behind everything. So by the time we went to New York, we knew the focus should be on the personalities and the people we had working here, and we have this wild cast of characters. We were hiring people that no one else would ever hire or give a chance. I often say we're one of the first true digital media companies. The people we found all the way from Magenta Marbles to Pat McAfee to Alex Cooper. McAfee couldn't get a job when he was done punting. Like, what do you Chamath Palihapitiya (00:09:23): how did you hire McAfee? How did you hire a fan? Dave Portnoy (00:09:26): McAfee was a fan, and we met him during a Super Bowl. We were at the Super Bowl, and we couldn't get credentialed. We had an RV that we parked outside and had guests come on. McAfee came on, and he knew he wanted to get in the media. I think he wanted to work at ESPN. They wouldn't hire him. We did, and, obviously, the rest is history with him. Alex Cooper had a podcast that she just started. We saw a sizzle reel for it. It was something we'd never seen before, so we called her into the office. And when I met her, she basically was like, well, I edited and made this entire sizzle reel myself. I'm like, how'd you do that? She's like, I self-taught myself. So we hired her. No idea what would become with her podcast, but we were willing to take chances, almost like a band label type model. It's like you hire this talent, and you hope they hit. There's a lot of misses we have. David Friedberg (00:10:17): How do you look at that? Like, is it just instinct, intuition? You see someone, you're like, they got it. They don't have it. I mean, you kind of yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:10:25): It is instinct, but it's wrong a lot of times. That's why I go to the band label. Like, you hear something. This is unique. This is interesting. It may not always work for me, like, in my own personality. A lot of the people who come from networks, they're so used to being told what to do. It's like all the way up. This is how you produce it. This is the hits. This is what you have to do. We didn't do any of that. It's Alex. Go do your thing. Sink or swim on the Internet. The beauty of the Internet, it will tell David Friedberg (00:10:51): you that it's a voting machine. It votes. Yes. Yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:10:54): So yeah. You know, that's not true on ESPN, maybe more so now. But if you have, you know, SportsCenter back in the day or you have the NFL show or you're CBS, you almost have to watch it. Old terrestrial radio. There aren't options. The Internet, like you said, a voting machine. So we'd hire people and let the Internet decide what became of them. David Friedberg (00:11:14): You know, the old studio model, Dave, they would have talent development, and so there would be these producers that would come in and help the talent get better, train them, teach them the art, etc. But it sounds like do you guys do that? I mean, do you kinda stay out of their way? You kinda let them run, let them figure it out themselves, and there's no training. There's no tools. There's no toolkit that says, here's how you become successful. Here's what you gotta hit on. Here's what you gotta do well. Here's what you gotta learn not to do, etc. Dave Portnoy (00:11:39): Yeah. We don't do any of that. I would say all those people, anybody who tried to do what you just described would not fit with us, and I'd say is a dinosaur. Like, again, the people we've hired from networks, the talent, it's like they need their handheld for the most part. They are so waiting. This is what you do. This is what you say, and we don't do any of that. David Friedberg (00:11:57): Yeah. So the raw independent talent, you just let them run. They take off. So then the business blows up. Yeah. And then, yeah, tell us about the Penn deal. Like, how did that how did that conversation start? When it happened, we talked about it on our show, because Chamath and I have talked a lot about this idea of the individual influencer media brands need to monetize in nontraditional ways. It's not just about selling ads, but there's kind of you know, CPG businesses are being launched by Kim Kardashian and Kylie Jenner. And there's an entirely new business model that's emerged with the independent media businesses that have been created over the last decade. And this seemed like a very good example of that. I guess, how did the conversation with Penn start, and how did that that deal kinda come about? Dave Portnoy (00:12:39): Yeah. So they changed the laws in the United States. That's what sparked it when they said sports gambling was gonna become legal and a state issue. We started when I started the thing, we were a gambling newspaper. Like, that's what we were. So when that happened, I I instantly was like, this is our chance. So we proactively went out and tried to solicit deals. Like, I had worked with DraftKings. I had worked with FanDuel back later. DraftKings, when they were 4 people, they offered me stock in the company. They're Boston guys. I remember we sat down, and we were kinda building our thing. They were building there. So I knew this space inside and out. We really didn't get any offers. We hired Moelis, which is like a banking, I know. Yeah. They sucked. They absolutely sucked. Behind the doors, one of the guys trashed me. So the reason they weren't getting any offers was because I was like an ass or something to that effect. I caught wind of that. Still irks me they got one penny of commission on that sale, but David Friedberg (00:13:40): they did. Dave Portnoy (00:13:40): Right. The Penn came through. We had a guy, David, who's in the gambling space, who introduced us to Penn. I had never heard of them, and Erica and I hit it off with Jay Snowden, the CEO. And that deal basically was exclusively negotiated between Jay and I. Erica involved too. Chernin was involved. They didn't really wanna talk to Chernin. They wanna talk to Erica and I because that's who they would be dealing with. So it's like, what's Dave about? Does Dave and Erica get along? What's the company about? And we negotiated that deal pretty much exclusively. David Friedberg (00:14:20): And then, the deal was set up as a two-stage. Right? Like, they bought a piece, and then they bought the rest later. Dave Portnoy (00:14:25): Correct. Which Yeah. My understanding of it, it was always going to happen that way. Like Right. And, you know, there are conversations that maybe would have changed our fortunes. Who knows? Like, in the beginning, do we call it Barstool Sportsbook or not? Because some people may not have a taste for Barstool. I argued we should. We'd lose what is one of the great things. I could've been wrong because dealing with state legislatures and government is up there. But it was always, let's not go all in right away because we don't wanna shock gambling-like legislatures. Let's start it slower and say we don't own them, and then eventually, we'll acquire the whole thing. So that was always the plan, and the price points were kind of mapped out. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:11): And the thought from Penn is if Dave and Erika are creating all this great content, we can integrate our sportsbook in there, and now we just have a much cheaper way to get a lot more customers as gambling becomes legal all throughout America. Dave Portnoy (00:15:25): Correct. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:15:26): That's their basic bet. Dave Portnoy (00:15:27): And they had no national brand. So in that sense, they're the perfect fit. Like, they owned all these scattered casinos throughout the country. Most of them people probably haven't heard of unless you live in that area, but what that did do is it gave them licenses for the sports gambling. So it's like, what brand are they gonna launch with? They didn't have one. So in that, we were the perfect fit, and the launch was actually very successful in terms of, you know, we are up 15% or so in Pennsylvania. Other states, pretty good launches, but super competitive. But, yeah, that was the theory behind it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:16:02): What happened? Then the deal kind of turned upside down pretty quickly. Right? Dave Portnoy (00:16:07): Yeah. I wouldn't say quickly because I thought we were kinda moving and grooving for a while. Our model was essentially, we're not gonna pay for advertising. Like, we're the advertising vehicle. So the people in that space are spending hundreds of millions of dollars, and they're losing hundreds of millions of dollars. And the market shares, David Friedberg (00:16:32): you mean the gambling companies? Correct. Dave Portnoy (00:16:35): FanDuel, MGM, Caesars. Hundreds of millions, hundreds of millions. We're spending none. They bought us. So we're getting smashed in that regard, but we're still kinda holding our market share, which I thought was pretty strong. Our tech wasn't great, and I think we knew that. They bought a company, theScore, for $2 billion. I think they spent a lot of money on theScore for the tech, and it took a while for that to come out. We didn't control it. I was under the impression for the past football season, we didn't promote that hard. Like, we kinda waited because we're waiting for the new tech. And then by the time the new tech came out, they formed the deal with ESPN, and we were done. Mhmm. So David Friedberg (00:17:23): Did they step in and tell you how to run the company during that time? Were they kind of active in changing stuff, or did they kinda leave you alone as well? Dave Portnoy (00:17:31): I think they were a headache for Erika in the sense of, like, we had to report now to a public company, and there was maybe more emphasis on the bottom line. I didn't get affected by it outside of, like, if a scandal hit in their public company, but they were pretty lenient. Again, there were things that came up in that relationship, like, that I don't think anybody could predict. I still think we could do a very good—we're very good at promoting gambling, and for pennies on the dollar, compared to what other companies do. David Friedberg (00:18:06): Yeah. So they—but they did an ESPN deal without your knowledge, or did they tell you, hey, we got this inbound from ESPN, and we're trying to figure out what to do with it? Dave Portnoy (00:18:15): They did the ESPN deal without me being involved. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:19): Mhmm. So you find David Friedberg (00:18:20): out Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:21): You find out on the back end of that. Dave Portnoy (00:18:23): Correct. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:24): And so how did you structure this deal to then get it out? Because it seems—I mean, that press was even more incredible than the press on the way in because it's like Portnoy just executed a really sick deal, it looked like. Dave Portnoy (00:18:36): Yeah. I think there was just a basic feeling from Penn and us that the Barstool and ESPN worlds are different. They were gonna partner with ESPN. They tried with us, and I think the biggest hiccup was me and my persona and what people feel about me. It's one thing. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:18:56): What is your persona, and what do people feel about you? Dave Portnoy (00:18:58): Depends who you ask. Some people love me, and they'll be like, this guy should run for president, and some people think I'm the devil. So depends on what article you read, but, you know, all the things that, you know, sex is these. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:19:12): What do they look like, that person? And who hates you? What do they look like? Dave Portnoy (00:19:15): I, well, I'd say a rational person likes me and a crazy person doesn't like me, but that's my own. David Friedberg (00:19:23): I feel the same way. That's a Dave Portnoy (00:19:24): crazy thing. I mean, I think if you're going stereotypical, it's you're gonna say the right generally likes me and the left, extreme left generally doesn't. I think the moderates on both sides generally like me, but, you know, my core beliefs generally tend—and people who follow me for a long time know this—tend to line up with the left more than it does with the right, but the hate I get comes from the left, not the right. David Friedberg (00:19:55): You're a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:19:55): man without a home. Dave Portnoy (00:19:56): Yeah. It's an interesting kind of philosophy they have there, but I will say if you say something that goes contrary to either side, they'll equally jump down your throat and be like, oh, forget everything we've said about him. Like, I remember I said it's pro-choice once, and, I mean, the right wanted to cut my tongue out of my mouth. I mean, they were coming from people who had, for 10 years, been like, we love this guy. We love this guy. We love this guy. Disagree on one point. Now we hate this guy. We hate this guy. We hate this guy. So, both, I guess, I'm a man without a home is a fair way to put it. David Friedberg (00:20:30): But, Dave, at the end of the day, it's like you speak your mind and people appreciate someone who speaks their mind and speaks their truth. Or you speak the agenda. And if you speak the agenda, they say we like you. And if you don't speak the agenda, we don't like you. Yeah. I mean, is that Dave Portnoy (00:20:47): And it varies from if you cannot speak the agenda and they don't like you, but if you get back on agenda on the next thing, they like you again. They don't stay too firm on it's just what you said last is basically what it is. I've always said the biggest issue I have with a lot of things, I don't wanna know what somebody thinks on an issue by their political affiliation. Like, I think 95% of the time you hear political people speak, you already know what they're gonna say based on their affiliation, which is sad and stinks. David Friedberg (00:21:20): 100%. The Dave Portnoy (00:21:21): flip side of that, there's more people I well, I know that. There's far more people who think like I do and feel I feel like that's the norm, but a normal person also doesn't wanna get in screaming matches about politics and Yeah. Totally. The craziness. David Friedberg (00:21:35): Totally. And on any given topic or policy, you got a point of view. But if you don't conform to all the topics and policies that the agenda is defined to be by that party, then you don't fit and you're ousted anyway. You can't be an independent thinker today. Dave Portnoy (00:21:51): Yeah. Do you think wild. David Friedberg (00:21:52): And we talk about this a lot because we just did our All-In Summit this week, and this was a repeated theme with all the people we had. We had Kyrsten Sinema. She was a senator from Arizona. You know, she got kinda ousted from the Democratic Party for speaking her mind and not kind of conforming to what the Democrats were telling her to do. We have Bari Weiss who left The New York Times. She was an editor at The New York Times, and she didn't want to conform to their agenda, and she started her own publication called The Free Press. So this was repeated a lot. Some of the academics we had were similarly ousted from their communities. Anytime you don't speak the agenda and you speak your mind, you kind of get ousted and then you're on the outskirts and you kind of have to start afresh. Do you think that this is a new phenomenon in America, or do you think this has always been the case and we're just all kind of waking up to it because we're, you know, in your case, you're more kind of a celebrity now. You're more well known, and so this is becoming more of an issue for you. Has this always been how things have been? Dave Portnoy (00:22:47): I would guess it has been this way far more than I realized. I think the internet certainly changes a lot of things because people have more voice and more access to information, but I bet it's been like this a lot. I mean, I grew up in a house where, like, The New York Times is gospel, and my dad hates Trump. Like, my dad hates him. Hates him. Hates him. My mom hates him. Hates him. Hates him. And then I came under attacks from, like, The New York Times. And, yeah, that was confusing for, like, my dad. It's like he's seen things that he's like, I don't understand how this is happening, and I'm showing him documented stuff. But, yeah, I probably think it has been this way because it's about power, really, and power is always something throughout history that people go pretty far to control, maintain. So I would guess this has been going on for a long time. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:23:43): We interviewed Trump. You did as well. What was that experience like? What did you think about him before going into it? What did you think after? And then when you shared it with your parents, what did that do to your relationship with your parents or their thoughts about him? Dave Portnoy (00:23:58): Yeah. My so I was when Trump ran the first time, I was like, I'm Trump because I think politics are so broken, and I think he's somebody who can just kinda, like, make a mockery of it and break politics. I said that he David Friedberg (00:24:12): needed a he needed a torpedo. Dave Portnoy (00:24:14): Yes. No. I didn't think he was gonna win the presidency. I was stunned. I was nervous when I went to interview him, to be honest, because he asked me. I had, like, 24 hours notice. He was still a sitting president. I don't do interviews. So I was nervous. When I went in, my thought on him was well, I thought it was funny and interesting, but he gets if you if so if someone is interviewing me, and I think they hate my guts, and I think no matter what this interview comes out, I I could say if they're cured for cancer, and they'd be like, no. You don't. Or I give you a dollar, and they want 100. If I just think it's no matter what happens, they're gonna try to crucify me, I would probably be, like, an arrogant head in that interview. He, when he realized that I was not trying to, like, gotcha or anything, he was affable, open, and normal. I think that's what happens with him quite a bit. It's like he senses instantly. It's not hard to tell who's coming for his throat, who's gonna be fair, who's on his side, and that changes his demeanor. You know, I've done a decent amount of research. I feel like on Trump, people, everyone is lying and this and that. Like, that's what the left always says. He's a liar. That's a lie. That's a lie. And I read an article just, like, last week, and it was from Time magazine. It's like top 10 lies he's told. And most of the lies tend to be what I would say are exaggerations. Like, he talks how he would if he was on Barstool. Like, I'm gonna build, like, a 100 he said he's gonna build 1,000 feet of wall, and he built, like, 300 feet. Or they're all, like they're not they're crate like, even how he talks in the debate. You know? Like, they're eating the pets, and he just talks as not presidential, and then those things get taken, and they're like, he's a liar who does this, but they're not, what I would say, egregious lies, most of them. They're quite clear exaggerations, and he doesn't talk like a president. And whether that helps or hurts him down the road, I just think he's he's a not presidential president. I said during the primaries, I would I I would have voted for Nikki Haley. I'll vote for Trump in the presidency because I want the country to get along. Dave Portnoy (00:26:46): I don't know if they can with him because it's not his fault necessarily to me, but they just people just he's broken people's brains. They're, like, they're just broken. It's you see people, it's like they're not making any sense. The things they jump on, like, David Friedberg (00:27:00): it it There's there's nothing he can say that Yeah. That'll make him that'll make him say, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:27:06): what do you think what do you think happens if Kamala wins? Dave Portnoy (00:27:11): It's probably more of the same. You know, I I I think that what the Democrats have done is far worse than really anything Trump has done, like, in terms of not allowing a primary. To me, that's crazy. Like, I'm somebody who, if I liked a candidate on the Democrat side, I could have potentially voted for that person, like, to not give people a choice. And they really still haven't figured out, well, was he not prepared? Like, is he not mentally aware? Can he not run? Is he too old? He just thought he was gonna lose. The the fear of you just thought he was gonna lose is not a real answer. He ran. Like, you have to then let other people run. And if he's not mentally there, which I don't think he is, Kamala has known that, like, and she just lied about it forever, and then they kick him out. So there's so many problems I have with the way she never got a vote. Like, I that I don't know. You can say whatever you want about Trump. He won the Republican nomination by a landslide fair and square, and Kamala did not. So to me, that's a major, major issue. Some of her past statements too for me are just, like, nutty, and I don't like what's happened in a lot of Democratic states. So I would vote, like, I hope if she's elected, like, California and New York, those don't become what happens in the United States. I don't know that it will. I don't know that that much can change. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:28:43): Is it hard to build a company of young, creative people in New York that abide by the culture that you want, or do you find yourself pushing up against all kinds of things that you're just like, what are these people asking for? I don't get it. Dave Portnoy (00:28:57): No. Because we hire I think the hardest thing is just cost of living and taxes and things like that. For our employees to live in New York City, it's extremely expensive. We wouldn't run into the people who think in our proper employees for us, they're there. And by the way, we have across a Barstool. We have super liberal, conservative. We have it all, and they clash internally like how normal humans would. But it's really the cost of living, like, in taxes and, you know, it's just really, really hard for a young person. You know, you could pay them $200,000 a year, and that is barely enough for someone to live in Manhattan. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:29:34): Okay. We'll talk about that for a second. You know, a lot of the undercurrent of why people are angry is that there's just really exaggerated wealth inequality. Right? There's folks like us that have sort of been lucky, good, whatever you wanna call it on the right side of doing well. And then there's all these other people with the potential to do well, but they're constrained somehow, and it's just getting harder and harder. You have sympathy for that argument? Do you have any sense of, like, what should be done to fix that? Dave Portnoy (00:30:01): I do. And it's such a hard thing to answer because I do, but I also think at times, it's a crutch. Like, so where is that fine balance? And I, I guess the way I've thought about it as an overall philosophy is we should be looking forward, not backward. And there feels like there's a whole lot of how do we fix backwards, but that's not necessarily gonna really help forward, if that makes sense. Like, I mean, California going back and they're looking at, like, reparations and things like it's it's you hear it. It's like, whoa. How are they gonna do that? We already have, like, crazy inflation, and now you're saying you wanna give everybody, like, African Americans, who fit the criteria is, like, millions of dollars each. Is that where what from where? Like, where is where is all this coming from? So it's it's moving forward. And at what point I think a fair question is at what point is, like, alright. Well, this isn't work. Like, we if you're just consistently going back, you're not gonna go forward. That's kinda how Chamath Palihapitiya (00:31:09): Like, if you pay a person at Barstool $200,000, I'm just picking that number. I'm not saying you do or not. And they can't really make ends meet in New York City, and they say, Dave, I gotta quit. I gotta move to a cheaper city or whatever. After enough people say that, do you pay that person $250,000, or do you think you have to move the company? Do you think you need to change the laws of the city? Like, what happens when you're running this business now and that inequality issue is confronted every day in your employee base? What do you do? Dave Portnoy (00:31:35): Yeah. For me on a personal basis, a lot of it we're sort of a talent company. So if I can't lose this person, I'll up the ante and pay to keep them. If we can afford to move on without them, we'll move on without them. So it's a case by case and a tough issue. David Friedberg (00:31:56): Yeah. Dave, I just wanna go back a second. You ended up buying the company back for a dollar. One question I had was how is it a dollar and not $20 million? And then I wanna talk a little bit about this idea of founder mode, which I don't know if you've heard this term, but it was kinda brought up in Silicon Valley a week or two ago. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:14): And it's cocaine. David Friedberg (00:32:16): It's cocaine. But we kinda made a we made a whole thing about it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:20): I don't know if you like founder mode Dave Portnoy (00:32:21): or not, but yeah. David Friedberg (00:32:22): But I'm Dave Portnoy (00:32:22): not a Coke guy. I'm not a Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:24): Coke guy. Dave Portnoy (00:32:25): I'm not a Coke guy. Or the coffee guy. David Friedberg (00:32:27): Well, I guess, how is it a dollar? How is Chamath Palihapitiya (00:32:29): it a $29? Like a great deal. How did you negotiate that? David Friedberg (00:32:32): And is it a dollar or is there a back end deal or something that we're missing that kinda got worked out? Yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:32:37): No. I think the thought was we had a lot of headaches with state legislatures gambling. There was a, like, the Massachusetts gambling lady hated my guts. Other people did. I think for Penn to move forward, they kinda had to disassociate this with the bet they made. David Friedberg (00:32:55): And quickly. Dave Portnoy (00:32:56): Yeah. And quickly. And let's end on very good terms with Barstool, myself. I think that's where it came from. I don't think that I don't think we were, like, a critical part. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:08): But did you propose the terms? Did you propose that structure, like guys? Dave Portnoy (00:33:12): It was a mutual, like, understanding. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:15): But a dollar seems like that's a very stark number. David Friedberg (00:33:18): Was it burning money at the time? Dave Portnoy (00:33:20): Well, you have to put something. I think if you're gonna give me the company back, like, if you could do zero, I think they could do zero. Yeah. The company was losing money. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:28): Oh, I see. David Friedberg (00:33:29): And so did you have to put money in yourself? No. Okay. And so you took the business over, and I wanna play this clip. Nick, can you pull the clip up? Dave Portnoy (00:33:38): This should be interesting. I had a sales meeting today. David Friedberg (00:33:45): I think I think, Dave Portnoy (00:33:46): I let him know back. I let him know I was here. Cracked some skulls? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:33:51): Well, I Dave Portnoy (00:33:51): didn't crack skulls, but it's like, their comp plan was, to me, they should be making more money on their comp plan, less base salary. You know, a lot of people may not make it. This is gonna get grimy again. I will yell at you. I may forget about it 5 seconds later. If you can't handle that, don't be here, but I'm sick of the excuses. And honestly, our comp plan was ass backwards. So salespeople, I want people up there like a bunch of Gordon Gekko-looking mother David Friedberg (00:34:22): That's good, Nick. Yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:34:24): That's good. David Friedberg (00:34:27): So you step in, you step in, and, you know, this is what people in Silicon Valley might call founder mode. You're just, like, cracking skulls. You're seeing all the that's up. You're like, we're gonna right-size the organization. We're gonna get the ship headed in the right direction. We're gonna restructure comp. I guess, how did things drift, you know, during that time? Dave Portnoy (00:34:47): Yeah. They drifted. We're a big public company that was using us as a marketing machine really to drive consumers. The casino maybe weren't as concerned about the bottom line. You know, I wasn't involved in really a lot of the stuff, but it was growth mode, growth mode, growth mode, not bottom line mode, not bottom line mode, which was, I think, what they wanted from us, and that was no longer going to be the case. And it isn't the case. David Friedberg (00:35:17): Was this like Elon taking over Twitter, and he kinda goes in? He's like, what the heck is going on here? And we gotta, like yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:35:22): Yeah. From what I heard, or saw stories of that, yes. I think very similar where and, again, this is always this is one thing that I clash with the left. There seems to be like, oh, we shouldn't have to work hard culture. Like, yo, I have to work, like, 10 hours a day or you get what you work for. So we're a great place to work. People would kill to work for Barstool. There's not and and we're always find that. Like, I had a sales job. Grass is always greener on the other side, but, you know, we do sports, entertainment. It's a great spot to work. And if you work hard, you get rewarded, but there is sort of that I don't know. The shaming of success earning, whatever you wanna call it, I do feel like exists in our in our country a little bit, and I I don't know where that came from. But David Friedberg (00:36:13): Well, that's the thing that irks that's the thing that irks me the most. I think the, I've said this before, but the the prosperity that we enjoy as a country is because of the productivity that's arisen from entrepreneurship. And entrepreneurship means everyone has a chance to build something and be successful in this country. And if you are, you deserve that success, and we should be rewarding that success with accolades, not with disdain. Dave Portnoy (00:36:40): We shouldn't be looking down on people. It's I'm not so close. It's like it's a it's a slur. Like, I love the word billionaire. If someone could call me a billionaire It's a slur. Take that and actually be like David Friedberg (00:36:51): like, you Dave Portnoy (00:36:52): Know, I've said that. Now that's one thing I'm always—I won't apologize for making money, having money, spending money. None of it. Like, that's what I worked my ass off for, and it is wildly irritating as somebody who, you know, built Barstool and didn't take a vacation day for 10 years. Like, literally, I had a hump in my neck because I was at my computer all day to then be told I have to coddle somebody else who works for me is infuriating, and that's good. The bigger you get, like, if I didn't have to have HR or any of that, I know you can't go over. I want it. Like, I wanna be able to, and the bigger you get, the less you can do that because you don't know who you're talking to and what type of issue that may lead to. David Friedberg (00:37:37): Yeah. Do you like the business-building aspect? I mean, do you like building sales comp plans and looking at the finances and figuring out the right next step strategically, or do you like being on camera and creating content and working with the creatives? Yeah. Like, how much of a business guy are you? Are you like? Dave Portnoy (00:37:56): I think I'm underestimated a little on the business side. There are certain aspects I like, certain aspects I hate. Like, in our world, I hate negotiating the talent contracts. Like, if you could've told me, Dave, don't like, what's something you're gonna hate? It's the talent business where, inherently, we're trying to find new stars, build them up just so they can turn around, hire an agent, negotiate us, and then leave. So it's like this—I wish it was a product that I owned, and the more we do that, that is a—I hate it. And, you know, we're using everything, and it happens with Alex Cooper. We make millionaires out of people, but that's our business. So I hate, hate, hate that. But the business side of it, outside of the talent, and what's the next steps, I enjoy. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:38:45): How successful has it been to launch these products off of Barstool? So, you know, you've launched a whole line of stuff. What's working and what's not working? What have you learned from that? Dave Portnoy (00:38:54): Yeah. What I've learned about our audience, and this probably holds true for a lot, it doesn't matter what I say or our influence is the product. It's like if the product's good, they do well. Like, Pink Whitney is a drink that kills it for us. We, Dan, Big Cat, has a coffee. Now I did a—excuse me—a One Bite frozen pizza. It was the biggest frozen launch Walmart ever had. It's gone. It's basically disappeared because it wasn't very good, and that's a huge missed opportunity probably because I got everybody to eat it. And we had, like, a million, and not even our crowd. Our crowd's not a Walmart crowd because a lot of David Friedberg (00:39:35): You're saying the product sucked. The actual product sucked. Product is bad. Dave Portnoy (00:39:38): It tasted bad. David Friedberg (00:39:39): How did that happen? Dave Portnoy (00:39:41): How did it taste bad? David Friedberg (00:39:42): Yeah. Because Dave Portnoy (00:39:43): I didn't know what the hell I was doing. We had a third party, and I just didn't understand the frozen pizza market. I thought we had made it as good as you could make it, and that just wasn't the case. So it was a bad product. I knew it was bad. So after it launched, it pretty much disappeared. I mean, it's still occasionally there. So it really is probably like High Noon, which I don't own, but I'm heavily involved in. It's an unbelievable product. It's just a spectacular drink. It's the number one vodka on the market. So we have this megaphone of people who trust us and will give anything a shot, but if the product's no good, it ain't gonna work. And if the product's good, it'll work. David Friedberg (00:40:27): You know, years ago, Starbucks set up a corporate strategy. They, Howard realized that every time they put a new product on the shelf, right, when you check out, you know, there at the register. Yep. It would sell like crazy, but then it would also go sell like crazy at Walmart and Target and Kroger all over the country everywhere else. And they were making brands with their platform. They realized, you know, we've got a platform. So they started to kinda do these deals where in order to put your brand, your product on the shelf at checkout, they had to get equity in the business. Is that a model you've kind of played with where you can leverage the platform? Instead of charging people ad dollars, you basically align with brands that you love, take a piece of those brands, and then really truly partner up with them and help them be successful and participate in that upside with them. Dave Portnoy (00:41:14): Yeah. So we yep. We've done that. We're starting to do that a lot more now that I've got the company back. Because when it wasn't my company, I didn't care as much because it's like, what are we getting? So I'm trying to be much more, like, helpful to our talent because not only are they happy, but it helps me keep them. So we're doing a lot more deals now how you just suggested. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:40): What's the what's the day in the life of Dave Portnoy? Are you, like, on Zooms all day talking to your teams about various things, or when do you have time to make the content? Like, how do you Dave Portnoy (00:41:49): Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:41:50): How is your day structured? Dave Portnoy (00:41:51): It it really varies. It it can vary day to day. I have my set, like, content things that I'm doing, whether it's pizza, BFF. I may do a podcast like this. And then, business stuff. But I'm not working like how I was working when I started it. We have good people at high levels who I trust and are doing, like whether it's a CFO, whether it's sales, I'm still in the loop on how everything's going, but I'm not as involved in the day each day. I mean Chamath Palihapitiya (00:42:19): Like, would you say your style is, like, you observe, and then if you feel or sense it's going off track, you just jump in and just 100%. Dave Portnoy (00:42:26): Yeah. That's a 100% what I would do. Yeah. Because, like yes. I was much more involved at the beginning. I don't want to be that involved as like, I wanna kinda live my life a little bit. So, yes, that's I would say that's exactly how I do it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:42:41): Let's go back to your roots for a second because I'm I'm really curious about this. Do you you think that sports gambling has been good for America so far based on how it's been launched, how young men use it? Dave Portnoy (00:42:55): Yeah. I mean, I'd say it's new. I wouldn't say it's good or bad. I mean, everyone's doing it. I'm sure there's horror stories just like any vice of people would be like, oh, I lost money or whatever. But from my world, I was doing it my whole life, so I was doing it when it was not legal. I'm also a firm believer in let an adult be an adult. Like, if they wanna gamble, they do it. But I would say it's been, it's probably created a bunch of business, like, because the industry is spending so much, and that trickles down in so many different areas. So gambling is going to happen. There's certain things that I'm pretty sure have happened since the dawn of man, gambling is one of them. It is going to happen, so you might as well legalize it and make money off of it rather than have it be underground bookies and things like that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:43:44): You talk a lot about WNBA right now, but are there sports leagues that you think are just yesterday's news, a little bit boring, not really? Dave Portnoy (00:43:51): Well, baseball's slow. They're also, like, in some bizarre world, the last to embrace, like, highlights in the Internet where the NBA was always the leader and forefront. I think it shows. You know, football isn't—it's the same sports, basically. I think baseball's the core 4 that's lagging. David Friedberg (00:44:11): Do you think, do sports franchise values go up as legalization happens, and then do sports franchise values go down? And, you know, is that a big driver, do you think, for—well, Dave Portnoy (00:44:22): I—well, the NFL's talking about letting private equity, right, invest. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:44:27): They approved it last month. David Friedberg (00:44:28): They've got it. Yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:44:29): So I can't that that, to me, can only make franchises skyrocket. And I don't think the bottom line always matters with sports. Like, you're making money or losing money. There's not many of them, and it's the biggest toy anybody really on Earth can have. Right? Like, what is better? And it does for some people, it doesn't matter how much money you have. You may still not be able to get it. So I can't see any world in which that doesn't continue to increase when this the demand far outweighs supply. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:45:03): Do you think that there's a world where somebody figures out a way for the players to own a piece of these teams as well? Like, you know, you talked about you started Barstool. Your four main guys, whether that was written down or not, you're giving them equity. In the same way, if you think about the equity that, you know, MJ created in the league or LeBron and Steph and KD have created in the league, they capture it in salary, but they don't capture it in equity. How do you think about that? Dave Portnoy (00:45:30): It's a tough question because by the time you would say, like, an MJ or LeBron, maybe LeBron a little different, but by the time they've risen to the level of, oh, this guy is worth the equity. Like, if you rewound Jordan's career from day one and you have the choice, like, we can have him on the Bulls or whatever, clearly, the equity is probably worth it. But by the time he establishes that, you're depending on almost which I find almost never happens in business, rare, like, retroactive goodwill, good faith. Like, okay. You did so much. Here's some equity. I don't I haven't found many people do that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:09): No. I think for the NBA, they'll just they'll probably find a way for LeBron to get the Vegas franchise. That's kind of his his reward maybe. You know? Yeah. But then there's a bunch of these other guys that are Dave Portnoy (00:46:20): When you say LeBron, do you mean, like, the Fenway Sports Group? Because he's that, like, they buy teams. He's part of that. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:25): I think it's probably it's probably Fenway maybe, but I think that they want him on the masthead as a direct owner. Yeah. I suspect if I had to guess. Dave Portnoy (00:46:34): Well, I mean, Jordan had minority in the Wizards. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:46:38): Do you still gamble for fun, or do you still gamble mostly for fun? David Friedberg (00:46:41): Let me tell you Dave's bets this year because I had them pulled up. He bet Dave Portnoy (00:46:46): I'm hot. David Friedberg (00:46:46): Point 1. 2 I mean, you're yeah. Tell us so 2,100,000 on the Huskies, 1,300,000 Dave Portnoy (00:46:53): Those are winnings. Yeah. David Friedberg (00:46:54): Yeah. On the Masters, on Scotty, 1,100,000 on the Celtics and NBA finals, $1,000,000 on Michigan over Alabama in the Rose Bowl, half a million on the Chiefs to win the Super Bowl, half a million on Washington over Texas in the Sugar Bowl. You're gambling. Dave Portnoy (00:47:09): Yeah. So to clarify, the only early ones that I bet a million on Michigan to win the Rose Bowl, that was just a million to win a million. I went to Michigan. I went to the game. It's like Yeah. David Friedberg (00:47:20): This is Dave Portnoy (00:47:21): gonna be my big bet. Most of the others have been, like, future. So, like, the Yeah. Not nearly. The winnings have been big because I've been red hot. I've gambled my whole life. I love gambling. We have a big partnership with DraftKings. People are always like, oh, DraftKings gives them the money or Penn. No. It's my own money. And, yeah, it's a passion of mine. I love doing it. I bet on horse racing, sports, and I enjoy it. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:47:44): The worst thing about gambling, in my opinion, is we have to pay taxes on the winnings, and then we can't carry over the losses. Dave Portnoy (00:47:51): The great news, which may be different, I generally don't have to worry about that because I generally lose, so I'm never, like, worried. This year will be year one of quite a long life that I've won, and it does look like I'm going that way, but that is crap. It's like a Kamala, like unrealized, unrealized gains David Friedberg (00:48:10): to you. Like, you Dave Portnoy (00:48:11): you get taxed on something you never had. Exactly. Is she still doing that, by the way? Is that, like, a real thing? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:48:17): She walked it back a little bit. David Friedberg (00:48:18): She walked it back. Yeah. She said, oh, no. And then she also walked back the capital gains tax from 40% down to 28 because of the backlash she got when she said, hey. I support the Biden proposal for tax reform. There was so much backlash. She started to lose a lot of big donors, and they were like, okay. You know, here's the compromise, and that's where they ended up. So got it. What ultimately happens if she gets elected is anyone's guess. You know? All these guys are kinda tacking to get elected, and no one knows what their when they're in office for all these folks. So, you know, we don't know. Do you gamble in any other way? Craps, dice? Yeah. That's what I was gonna ask. Do you ever do Chamath Palihapitiya (00:48:52): you I mean, I I poker. David Friedberg (00:48:58): Yeah. I mean Or stocks. You know? Like, you did stocks for a while, didn't you, or not? Dave Portnoy (00:49:02): I love stocks. Like, stocks is to me is better than sports gambling because you rarely like, unless a company just goes poof, you're not, like, out. Like, if you have patience, for the most part, you can bounce back. So I I, yeah, I I I have money in the stock market. I'll play, like, at a casino, but it doesn't do it for me. I'm delusional. Like, I think I know what's gonna happen in sports. Like, I'm like, oh, I know how the Patriots are playing. Or, like, if I'm playing blackjack, like, I know the rules, but I also know I have no control over what I I don't count cards. I like poker, but I'm no expert at it, and I don't play that often. It doesn't have the same You're not a quant guy. David Friedberg (00:49:42): You're not an analytical guy that's doing modeling or anything like that. No. No. No. No. No. Dave Portnoy (00:49:45): But if I could go back and have one skill, I'd love to, like, be able to, like, have an algorithm for the stock market. Like, how all the people make all their money where it just hit, like but I don't have that brain. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:49:56): You did a lot of it during COVID, but then that content kinda wound down. Dave Portnoy (00:49:59): Yeah. Well, the stock market during so we did the Penn deal, like, right before COVID. So we're gearing up to do all the sports gambling content, and then sports went away. And I'm like, alright. Well, the stock market is still going. It's kind of the same thing. So I started doing that without much knowledge, livestreaming it, and people loved it. The swings in the stock market during COVID were bananas. Bananas. It was I mean Huge. Awesome. Like, I loved it, but that's not happening. So to do the daily day trading, stocks aren't moving nearly unless it's, like, in earnings. They're not moving like they were, so it's it's boring. Yeah. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:50:40): Can you tell us about the Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese WNBA controversy? You have some strong opinions on that. You post Dave Portnoy (00:50:46): have strong opinions on that. I mean, I, so I love Caitlin Clark. This I mean, Chamath Palihapitiya (00:50:52): do you think do you think it's Larry Magic all over again? Dave Portnoy (00:50:57): We'll see how Angel she had a great rookie year. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:51:00): She had a great rookie year. Yeah. Dave Portnoy (00:51:01): Angel was not on the same but I don't think not yeah. Alright. If you love college basketball, women's college basketball, sure, you knew who Angel Reese was. I did not know who Angel Reese was until she was doing this thing to Caitlin Clark and this and following up, who is this? Whereas Magic and Bird, everybody knew those two going in. Angel and this isn't this will sound disrespectful, but it's a fact. People would not the majority of people would not know who she was if it wasn't for her going at Caitlin Clark and becoming her rival by really trash talking her. And that anybody in the media who says it's anything other than Angel Reese thrusting herself into this conversation, which, by the way, business wise, brilliant for her because she's got shoe deals. She was Shaq. She's got all this stuff, but people would not know who she was. Caitlin Clark is by every metric, like, David Friedberg (00:51:58): a a unicorn. Transcend. She's a unicorn. Dave Portnoy (00:52:01): Yeah. Exactly. So and she put herself in the same conversation with it, and she's had a great work rookie season. But Bird Magic, no one knew she I mean, I I didn't know. I just saw Caitlin play in college, and she was doing things I just never seen a woman doing basketball pulling up from the logo. Like, who the hell is this? And I just started watching her, and I didn't even during the game with the LSU one, and she did all the theatrics. I didn't notice Angel during the game. Like, I really I bet on Iowa. I was mad, and then I don't know if I get credit or disapprove, however you wanna put it. I tweeted, and this went super viral and started like a race war. I was so mad when they lost this game. I tweeted, Angel Reese is a classless piece of shit. So first time I talked about her, and it was right after she was taunting her. And everyone's like, you only said that because she's Black. It's like, it had nothing to do with it. It was I bet on Caitlin. I was pissed. It didn't matter who it was. People always ignore that with me. Some of my most fiercest enemies, Roger Goodell. Like, I and I had to pull up, like, Brooks Koepka. I've like, all these people I'd call classless pieces of shit. It's how I talk. But the race thing from that moment really took off between these two. I I I won't say it's Bird, Magic. I think it's disrespectful to how different because those are two of the greatest of all time. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:53:22): Yeah. Two of the greatest of all time. Dave Portnoy (00:53:24): And Angel's a great rebounder. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:53:25): And to Caitlin's credit, I think that she has completely uplifted the WNBA to a level that I don't think anybody expected. Dave Portnoy (00:53:31): It's insane. David Friedberg (00:53:32): It's insane. Dave Portnoy (00:53:32): The number one game on NBA TV has been a WNBA game. It's beating the NBA. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:53:38): I remember when, you know, we had a moment where Steph had all these ankle injuries. This was like in that first era with Monta Ellis, and there was a lot of pressure to trade Steph. And he just came back and all of a sudden he was lights out. Right? And then what you saw was every young kid wearing his jersey because it's much easier to look at Steph and say, I could be like Steph. Right? Not nearly as tall as everybody else, not nearly as huge as everybody else. And you're starting to see the same thing with Caitlin where all these kids are like, I can shoot like her. That's where you become transcendent because you have this approach that seems like, well, I could do this too. It's that thing that just makes you a huge star. Dave Portnoy (00:54:20): I said when Nike did the deal with her, I thought it was the biggest steal, like, in the history of sports marketing. Like, it was 10 million, and then you look at, like, Devin Booker's, like, 30 million a year. There's yeah, no person on the planet who can tell me Devin Booker is more marketable than Caitlin Clark. It's like, Caitlin Clark is up there with anybody. She's hit something that you rarely see, whether it's a Tiger, a Serena, somebody who is just redefining the sport, and it's not the color of her skin. That was what drove me nuts with this because the WNBA is filled with white superstars. People are at Diana Taurasi, so the Sabrina Ionescu. There's a ton of Ionescu. Yeah. Ionescu and the woman from UConn who's at the top and Sue Bird, there's a ton. She plays different. If you watch the game, she does not play how anybody's seen a woman play. That's it. That and everyone made it into all these other issues. It's she plays different. You haven't seen it before. David Friedberg (00:55:24): Dave, let me ask you a question. You've remained steadfast in speaking your mind, speaking your truth, telling your opinions. It's gotten you a lot of heat over the years. You got a lot of people writing articles negatively about you, chasing down personal stories about you, all this sort of stuff. You're still here. And there was a period of time for a couple years where everyone talked about cancel culture, and someone does something that is inappropriate or is a microaggression using a big platform, and they should be canceled, and everyone rallies behind and puts this person out. They're done. But you haven't been canceled. Why is that? And do you think that we're kinda post-cancel culture in America? Was that a moment that's come and gone, or do you think we're still kinda fighting the fight for free speech in America and the ability to speak one's mind, and speak one's voice without being deplatformed and shut down? Dave Portnoy (00:56:13): Yeah. I don't think it's totally gone. I think I'm here just it it it Barstool has been around for a long time, so people really do know me. Like, the fans or or people who have read Barstool for 20 years have stuck by me, and and and that's been important. Like, if you're on someone else's platform, it's a lot easier to deplatform them because you have advertisers and somebody above who don't wanna deal with the headache or anything like that. So I I've been even when Penn was here, and there are people above me theoretically, what choice do they have to have my back? Because it's it's well, if you don't have my back, I still have this megaphone. I'm just gonna be like, guess what? These guys don't have my back, and then poof, everything they've done. So I've had that luxury of being able to speak directly and not having to worry where if you're just on a different network, they can pull the plug a lot easier. And I'm kind of an open book, so I think what has worked in my favor is I've never been worried. Well, if I speak out or defend myself, what's gonna come out next, or is there someone lurking in the closets? I've never cared. Everything's out there. I've told the truth, and that's allowed me to be pretty comfortable, like, the heavy accusations, like Business Insider when, like, sexual misconduct type stuff, like, all garbage. And when I say point zero zero one, there was no truth to any of the stuff that happened. I had all the facts. And so when this thing hit, like, it just made me look kinda stupid or embarrassed because nobody wants, like, personal text, but I had that stuff out there. Like, it was out there hours after it's like, here it is. Here's everything that disproves it. Not everyone does that. David Friedberg (00:57:57): You think people are just sick and tired of being told what to think and who to follow and who's right and who's wrong, and they wanna kinda make up their own minds and not kinda get behind this whole cancel culture organizational system anymore? Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:09): Do you David Friedberg (00:58:09): think that kind Dave Portnoy (00:58:09): of percent. I find that my biggest issue is I don't know what to believe. I don't believe anything. And that's kinda unfortunate. You just hear so many things, and a lot of times it's even hard to figure out where the truth is. You try to dig into it, especially in politics. That's probably a good example. I hear so many things on both sides. When you really try to dig down and be like, is this real? Is this fake? It's hard to find the root of the truth, and that is actually kinda scary. David Friedberg (00:58:44): I think that's why freedom of speech matters now more than ever because we gotta have more voices, not fewer, so that people can ultimately find the truth themselves. Chamath Palihapitiya (00:58:53): Have you been able to convince your dad that maybe the New York Times isn't always telling the truth? Dave Portnoy (00:58:58): No. I haven't, which is scary. It it it he he doesn't have an answer for it. With me, he does. But he still truly believes he's one of those guys where there's nothing Trump could do. Nothing. Like, he's bad. And if he gives the greatest answer, greatest thing, whatever, it doesn't matter. Trump's bad. I mean, you can give well, what about the other side? He doesn't care. So, no. He's skewed. He's somebody who's gonna watch mainstream media and pretty much believe everything they say. Maybe a little bit he's changed, but I think there's a lot of people like him. David Friedberg (00:59:33): Well, before we wrap, what's the future for Barstool, Dave? What are you gonna do with the business over time? Is it just a business you now own forever? You're gonna run it, make a profit, live off of it. I mean, what's your long term? Dave Portnoy (00:59:45): I mean, that kind of nailed it. It may sound not like a true founder. I sometimes get this, but I want Barstool to be a place where we break even or make money so I'm not overly stressed and pulling my hair out, and people enjoy coming to work, and they have a good job. Like I've said, and I said to our employees when I took it, it's like, I've made my money. I'm never gonna become like a billionaire off Barstool if someone pays it. So I'm happy, I'm comfortable, and I want our employees to have a place there that they know a job is there, and, you know, they don't hate going to work. That's kind of and we'll look for opportunities and try to continue to grow, but I'm not maniacal about how do we get to the next step. David Friedberg (01:00:28): Yeah. That's awesome. Great. Dave, thanks for being with us. This has been an Dave Portnoy (01:00:34): awesome chat. I Chamath Palihapitiya (01:00:36): really enjoyed it. Thanks, man. Have a great day. See you guys.